The Future of the Ski Industry

[mbedle]

If I got to pay more for a lift ticket or pass because some idiot chose a crappy career path - I'm checking out early.... Holly hell - that kind of talk is scary to me!

 

[Edd]

If I got to pay more for a lift ticket or pass because some idiot chose a crappy career path - I'm checking out early.... Holly hell - that kind of talk is scary to me!

Folks don't always make less than ideal money because they're idiots who choose crappy career paths. Generalizations go both ways, apparently.

 

[mbedle]

You are correct Edd - I was generalizing. I should have said that if a person has chosen to work a minimum wage job, they should have known the limits that career path has on potential income. Sorry if I offended anyone. There are obviously people who chose a decent career path and the economy has changed the potential income that career can generate. My biggest concern was just with the statement someone made about incomes should dictate what someone pays to ski.

 

[Not Sure]

Folks don't always make less than ideal money because they're idiots who choose crappy career paths. Generalizations go both ways, apparently.

Agreed....But the idea of entitlement that seems to be out there is very frustrating , coupled with the "Politics of Envy" that has been around lately only adds one more reason for people to be unhappy.

I would love to take off and ski to my hearts content but my family would pay the price , I am not wealthy but live a comfortable life because I put in a lot of hours, Actually think I'm slow and not very smart but make up for the handicap by working harder and longer. Some people are born with a gift and some aren't . But being envious tword others just eats you up inside.

I very much enjoy reading about other peoples skiing exploits and am not jealous one bit ...more power to them.
with the exception of the conceited asshole trust fund kid who taunts others ....They can burn in hell.

 

[dlague]

I'm not a big financial whiz, and not fulling informed of all the posts in this thread. But you can't compare 2014 ski experience with 1970s. I started skiing in 1970 and have only missed a few winters in between. Except for a few 'big' areas in VT and NH, everything was small time in the 70s. Skiied in your jeans (no special expensive gear). Knit hats, my mom made those and my ski mittens. I had hand-me-down gear and went on the school bus after school to the tiny feeder hill in town next door. Rope tows, fed by an old Ford. There was the expert trail with the super fast rope tow (that crapped out your clothes), and 2 small ones and a T-bar. Went to to a bigger moutain in NH (Crotched) in 1980 or so...slowest chair lift, waits were 30-45 mins for a small run. Snowmaking? Hmm... maybe a few guns here and there...dont remember much at all. Many icy lean snow years.

If things werre like that today, you could afford it. But skiers now demand more...so price HAS to go up - how can you have detachables and grooming and snowmaking with same dollars? You're high. When I graduated college my first professional job was not much more than minimum wage lol. Not enough money to pay for skiing and living on my own - so I picked up a second job in a liquor store - first 6 months I saved for new gear, then thru the winter it paid for my tickets. You find a way. Maybe skiing is a motivator to working hard...work the fryolater at McD as a career and dont ski, or get a skill/trade/reputation and pull yourself up to a better paying job so you can ski? Or get a second job? The small mountains in maine are dying...noone wants to go, even though you could probably afford it as a fryolator guy. Peoples baseline criteria for skiing is exponentially greater than it was when i was a kid... Honestly I don't know how I could ski in such crappy gear, without being cold...or maybe I was but the memories fade in the aura of skiing...but people nowadays cannot take such conditions.

I agree with much of what you said! There were no parks, glade skiing was non existent, no HSQ's, fewer snow cats , lodges much simpler and snowmaking was much more basic! I worked making snow at Jay Peak in 1980 and while we had good coverage the guns were not very efficient. I think in a push to attract more visits ski areas actually created a product that drove up expectations and ultimately the costs!


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[mbedle]

I agree with much of what you said! There were no parks, glade skiing was non existent, no HSQ's, fewer snow cats , lodges much simpler and snowmaking was much more basic! I worked making snow at Jay Peak in 1980 and while we had good coverage the guns were not very efficient. I think in a push to attract more visits ski areas actually created a product that drove up expectations and ultimately the costs!




.......

All true, but that applies to everything in society (houses, cars, electronics, etc.). I also don't think ski areas decided on their own to modernize their businesses, it was mostly a response to consumer needs and requests.

 

[dlague]

All true, but that applies to everything in society (houses, cars, electronics, etc.). I also don't think ski areas decided on their own to modernize their businesses, it was mostly a response to consumer needs and requests.

Well I think that larger ski areas add features or technology or expansion in order to increase skier visits which results in new standards.


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[mbedle]

Well I think that larger ski areas add features or technology or expansion in order to increase skier visits which results in new standards.


.......

We need an economist to figure this out. Maybe you are right. It might be a "Build it and they will come" scenario. I don't really know how it works. What if no one complained about a fifty minute lift rides to the summit or standing in lift lines, do you think that a ski area would still go ahead and install a HSQ?

On an other note, has the cost of skiing increase faster than other tangible items. A gallon of gas back in 1970 cost $0.35 and now it cost $3.50. Stowe's lift ticket in 1970 cost $10.00 and now it cost $109 (at the window) and $89 online. The cost of gas has risen 10 fold in the past 44 years, almost the same as Stowe's lift ticket cost. As far as wages goes, they increased as much over the past 44 years. Back in 1970 a $10 lift ticket was approximately 0.00119 percent of the medium household income. Now it would be approximately 0.002026 percent of the medium household income or 0.001711 percent for the online ticket. With that said, I can understand how a lot of people would perceive skiing to be more expensive than in the past.

 

[goldsbar]

I'm not a big financial whiz, and not fulling informed of all the posts in this thread. But you can't compare 2014 ski experience with 1970s. I started skiing in 1970 and have only missed a few winters in between. Except for a few 'big' areas in VT and NH, everything was small time in the 70s. Skiied in your jeans (no special expensive gear). Knit hats, my mom made those and my ski mittens. I had hand-me-down gear and went on the school bus after school to the tiny feeder hill in town next door. Rope tows, fed by an old Ford. There was the expert trail with the super fast rope tow (that crapped out your clothes), and 2 small ones and a T-bar. Went to to a bigger moutain in NH (Crotched) in 1980 or so...slowest chair lift, waits were 30-45 mins for a small run. Snowmaking? Hmm... maybe a few guns here and there...dont remember much at all. Many icy lean snow years.

I started probably a decade later, but this is still a great description. Not so many t-bars, but the lifts were incredibly slow and lines long for marginal snow. Much better now.

 

[Not Sure]

We need an economist to figure this out. Maybe you are right. It might be a "Build it and they will come" scenario. I don't really know how it works. What if no one complained about a fifty minute lift rides to the summit or standing in lift lines, do you think that a ski area would still go ahead and install a HSQ?

On an other note, has the cost of skiing increase faster than other tangible items. A gallon of gas back in 1970 cost $0.35 and now it cost $3.50. Stowe's lift ticket in 1970 cost $10.00 and now it cost $109 (at the window) and $89 online. The cost of gas has risen 10 fold in the past 44 years, almost the same as Stowe's lift ticket cost. As far as wages goes, they increased as much over the past 44 years. Back in 1970 a $10 lift ticket was approximately 0.00119 percent of the medium household income. Now it would be approximately 0.002026 percent of the medium household income or 0.001711 percent for the online ticket. With that said, I can understand how a lot of people would perceive skiing to be more expensive than in the past.

How much of the lift ticket price is liability insurance ?. When I started in the 70's my local mole hill would panic at the sight of a mogul larger than 18''

 

[jack97]

We need an economist to figure this out. Maybe you are right. It might be a "Build it and they will come" scenario. I don't really know how it works. What if no one complained about a fifty minute lift rides to the summit or standing in lift lines, do you think that a ski area would still go ahead and install a HSQ?

On an other note, has the cost of skiing increase faster than other tangible items. A gallon of gas back in 1970 cost $0.35 and now it cost $3.50. Stowe's lift ticket in 1970 cost $10.00 and now it cost $109 (at the window) and $89 online. The cost of gas has risen 10 fold in the past 44 years, almost the same as Stowe's lift ticket cost. As far as wages goes, they increased as much over the past 44 years. Back in 1970 a $10 lift ticket was approximately 0.00119 percent of the medium household income. Now it would be approximately 0.002026 percent of the medium household income or 0.001711 percent for the online ticket. With that said, I can understand how a lot of people would perceive skiing to be more expensive than in the past.

like it or not we live in an oil base economy..... there have been days where I wish it was based on salt.

 

[snoseek]

Folks don't always make less than ideal money because they're idiots who choose crappy career paths. Generalizations go both ways, apparently.

Right....I like to cook and am good in the kitchen so I went to culinary school and have happily settled into a great career. But going by this logic it would definitely be a crappy career path and I'm an idiot for pursuing something I like to do.

edit-by great career I mean satisfying (for the most part...some days SUCK). The money overall is enough to support a very lean lifestyle and not much more...if I had kids I'd be fucked. Also the hours can be a nightmare....I've worked many 100 plus hour work weeks in the past during heavy volume times.

 

[bigbog]

I'll concede, I took this going down a slippery slope...You're Right BG..

..Yes, if only we could do something to keep those "evil" wealthy people who work hard to earn their money away from the resorts. Wouldn't life be grand then? Good Lord in heaven, you sound like one of those hypocritical losers from Occupy Wall Street.

..now I know we're really down the slope...

mbedle...~$.32 in 1962! A little higher in 70';-).
You're saying the medium? household income has remained the same one unit?
Your missing the picture....

 

[deadheadskier]

like it or not we live in an oil base economy..... there have been days where I wish it was based on salt.

might happen.....

http://themindunleashed.org/2014/09/move-tesla-new-car-powered-salt-water-900-horsepower.html

 

[bigbog]

I think it's a fair analogy in that a newbie who books a weekend in advance is going to have a bad impression if the weather turns out to be sub-zero.

...often boot/alignment issues too....

 

[mbedle]

I'll concede, I took this going down a slippery slope...You're Right BG..



..now I know we're really down the slope...

mbedle...~$.32 in 1962! A little higher in 70';-).
You're saying the medium? household income has remained the same one unit?
Your missing the picture....

No - it was $0.35 in 1970. What do you mean by "household income has remained the same one unit?"

 

[Smellytele]

A lot of people theses days are building larger and larger homes. As a kid of the 70's even the nicest houses were smaller than what people seem to be building today as spec homes. People what better and bigger everything but then bitch about the prices. For example pickup trucks used to be vehicles for construction workers or country folk. Now a days they make more luxury 40k pickup trucks than work trucks. Come on Cadillac makes a pickup truck. Who the hell needs a Cadillac pickup truck? Do they ever put a load of dirt or bricks in it?
So what I am getting at is ski areas heard complaints from people wanting better conditions and better lodges and they listen. Then we bitch. Also who needs to have a lodge that has linen table clothes and sit down service with lobster bisque. We are a society of want and wanting more and more not realizing the consequences. With every action there is a reaction.

 

[Puck it]

might happen.....

http://themindunleashed.org/2014/09/move-tesla-new-car-powered-salt-water-900-horsepower.html

Lexus us is making one too.

 

[deadheadskier]

A lot of people theses days are building larger and larger homes. As a kid of the 70's even the nicest houses were smaller than what people seem to be building today as spec homes. People what better and bigger everything but then bitch about the prices. For example pickup trucks used to be vehicles for construction workers or country folk. Now a days they make more luxury 40k pickup trucks than work trucks. Come on Cadillac makes a pickup truck. Who the hell needs a Cadillac pickup truck? Do they ever put a load of dirt or bricks in it?
So what I am getting at is ski areas heard complaints from people wanting better conditions and better lodges and they listen. Then we bitch. Also who needs to have a lodge that has linen table clothes and sit down service with lobster bisque. We are a society of want and wanting more and more not realizing the consequences. With every action there is a reaction.

+1

This reminds me of this article I read yesterday on MSN about a couple from Plano, Texas "barely making it" on $125K/year income.

http://money.msn.com/saving-money-t...dollar125k-but-still-losing-sleep-about-money

Now, I realize that's not a huge sum of money for a two income family. In this family it's just 1 earner and if you're making that as an individual, you are doing pretty darn well for yourself. However, you scroll down and look at their expenses: $2700 mortgage (in Plano where real estate isn't very expensive), $3000 in monthly credit card payments. Yeah, you're barely scraping by because you're making poor financial decisions. You could afford an average home in Plano for half that mortgage payment. What the hell did/are you buying to ring up a $3K monthly CC bill.

I think a big part of why people feel the economy is so bad is because people have redefined what our basic quality of life needs to be and are upset when they can't afford cell phones, iPads, 52" TVs and cars for every family member and going out to eat 5 nights a week.

 

[Edd]

+1

This reminds me of this article I read yesterday on MSN about a couple from Plano, Texas "barely making it" on $125K/year income.

http://money.msn.com/saving-money-t...dollar125k-but-still-losing-sleep-about-money

Now, I realize that's not a huge sum of money for a two income family. In this family it's just 1 earner and if you're making that as an individual, you are doing pretty darn well for yourself. However, you scroll down and look at their expenses: $2700 mortgage (in Plano where real estate isn't very expensive), $3000 in monthly credit card payments. Yeah, you're barely scraping by because you're making poor financial decisions. You could afford an average home in Plano for half that mortgage payment. What the hell did/are you buying to ring up a $3K monthly CC bill.

I think a big part of why people feel the economy is so bad is because people have redefined what our basic quality of life needs to be and are upset when they can't afford cell phones, iPads, 52" TVs and cars for every family member and going out to eat 5 nights a week.

Perversely fascinating to compare someone else's finances to your own. The $300 electric bill is an eyebrow raiser, but it's hard to compare that to my small place in NH with just the GF and me. Our air conditioning expenses are certainly lower. I wonder if the credit card debt is due to the health expenses for the kid.