The "Sugarbush Thread"

[raisingarizona]

Alterra owns very little of the real estate. Stern and company sold a lot of it off when the ski area was getting started to survive. In fact, very few folks buy DV day tickets since most are using IKON. It’s about the image. I still stand by spending a bit less to address a more urgent need.

I’ve heard about the base crowding issue. But again I think there were less expensive yet just as effective solutions.

It’s starting to look like Deja vu all over again as when SB was owned by ASC its revenue was going to Steamboat and another Park City resort (Canyons). Granted that up until now there have been good improvements.

But hey SB skiers enjoy that new Tommy’s Toy next year.

Well you ain't wrong but there's gotta be some behind the scenes deals going on there with DV, Mayflower and the real estate developments.

That new Steamboat gondola is a damn big one for sure. Again, you aren't wrong but I can see how it makes sense to ASC decision makers. One of the issues with the Steamboat experience has always been the lengthy travel time between the separation of the upper mountain areas and the lower mountain. I also think that with a warming planet the t2b gondola makes for a solution when the lower mountain is struggling with coverage while the upper mountain is in. I bet we'll see years in the future where it's being used to download skiers/riders during those challenging weather periods early and late season. I'd bet Christmas and March produce Steamboats largest visitation numbers and they often have poor coverage down low those times.

 

[Lotso]

I don't think the current Alterra spending model is akin to the final days of ASC. In the final days of ASC there were barely two pennies to rub together and everyone had to take non paid layoffs over the summer. There was zero maintenance work happening until Aug 1 and then it was minimal at best. I agree it would be nice to have some more money put into lifts, especially Northridge but I don't think SB was ever going to be Alterra's answer for Vail's Stowe. Mt Ellen is still the 2nd priority but the did put a lot of money in last year with new snowmaking on the upper mountain and the base lodge improvements are nice. I will take the HG replacement happily. The Tommy's Toy is funny but there is not true beginner area at Mt Ellen since the Sunny Q is now essentially a park lift and the snowflake area is not even used anymore.

They did a bunch of pipe replacement at the base of GMX this summer, as well as the work road cutting from Northstar to Cliffs. Hopefully staving off future blowouts. Lots of cutting back of trails...looks like it was with some bad-ass flail, as some branches and trees shattered but more area for snow. I know that's routine maintenance, but still good to see

 

[thetrailboss]

Well you ain't wrong but there's gotta be some behind the scenes deals going on there with DV, Mayflower and the real estate developments.

As we've discussed in the other thread, the Mayflower project is all on Extel land and not DVR land. Truth be told DVR wanted nothing to do with it because it amounted to DVR being forced to take over the ski operations with no real incentive to do so. For a while Extel was advertising this as their own ski area while they negotiated with DVR. That said, Alterra owns the Snow Park base area and its large parking lots and is intending to develop those areas into a base village. So a larger DV would help with that project. But overall you'd be shocked as to how little DVR owns in terms of hotels, real estate, and other amenities. Their focus has alawys been on the skiing operations.

That new Steamboat gondola is a damn big one for sure. Again, you aren't wrong but I can see how it makes sense to ASC decision makers. One of the issues with the Steamboat experience has always been the lengthy travel time between the separation of the upper mountain areas and the lower mountain. I also think that with a warming planet the t2b gondola makes for a solution when the lower mountain is struggling with coverage while the upper mountain is in. I bet we'll see years in the future where it's being used to download skiers/riders during those challenging weather periods early and late season. I'd bet Christmas and March produce Steamboats largest visitation numbers and they often have poor coverage down low those times.

You said ASC and it gave me PTSD. I certainly think that the new gondola is intended to add to year-round business and to address low snow situations. The layout is weird and getting from Werner back to the base is a PITA with that traverse down and around the front ridgeline. But I come back to the question being was this a priority when Northridge is on its last legs and, as someone else said, Tremblant has infrastructure needs as well? We just don't know what specific factors went into the decisionmaking.

 

[thetrailboss]

I don't think the current Alterra spending model is akin to the final days of ASC. In the final days of ASC there were barely two pennies to rub together and everyone had to take non paid layoffs over the summer. There was zero maintenance work happening until Aug 1 and then it was minimal at best. I agree it would be nice to have some more money put into lifts, especially Northridge but I don't think SB was ever going to be Alterra's answer for Vail's Stowe. Mt Ellen is still the 2nd priority but the did put a lot of money in last year with new snowmaking on the upper mountain and the base lodge improvements are nice. I will take the HG replacement happily. The Tommy's Toy is funny but there is not true beginner area at Mt Ellen since the Sunny Q is now essentially a park lift and the snowflake area is not even used anymore.

I'm not saying it is the final days of ASC either. My point is that like in the ASC days SB will have to fight for improvements and compete against other areas out west. I am hoping that SB does get a new NRX in 2025. That said, it appears that is not in the cards. Liftblog has removed it from the site. We don't know what exactly is going on, but as it is a replacement lift on an existing liftline, I doubt that land use approvals are holding this up. State reviews are pretty expedited for such projects. Who knows--maybe the local management just does not have much sway with the Alterra mothership.

 

[cdskier]

I'm not saying it is the final days of ASC either. My point is that like in the ASC days SB will have to fight for improvements and compete against other areas out west. I am hoping that SB does get a new NRX in 2025. That said, it appears that is not in the cards. Liftblog has removed it from the site. We don't know what exactly is going on, but as it is a replacement lift on an existing liftline, I doubt that land use approvals are holding this up. State reviews are pretty expedited for such projects. Who knows--maybe the local management just does not have much sway with the Alterra mothership.

I doubt land use approvals are holding it up. It isn't even on Forest Service or State land as that part of ME is all privately owned (you have to get above the top of NRX to hit the portion of ME not owned by Sugarbush). ACT 250 for a replacement NRX lift in the same alignment should be easier than the approval for HG.

The part that perhaps bothers me even more is that now this is twice this lift was announced and then quietly backed off. Hammond point blank said it in a video at the end of the season a couple years ago that both HG and NRX were being replaced together. Then that quietly went away. Last season it again came up that NRX was now being a 2025 replacement (although I'm trying to recall if Liftblog was the only source of that date or if there was anything more direct from SB stating that as well).

As to you last comment about management's relationship with Alterra...there's an interesting quote in the recent VAlley Reporter article that was shared where Hammond says how great it is working with Alterra and how much they "listen" to the important needs of their mountains. Either that's BS or else local management doesn't consider NRX enough of a priority to be pushing Alterra to get done now.

At any rate...I'll be there and still ski ME as much as possible this winter. Hopefully NRX runs well enough...

 

[machski]

As we've discussed in the other thread, the Mayflower project is all on Extel land and not DVR land. Truth be told DVR wanted nothing to do with it because it amounted to DVR being forced to take over the ski operations with no real incentive to do so. For a while Extel was advertising this as their own ski area while they negotiated with DVR. That said, Alterra owns the Snow Park base area and its large parking lots and is intending to develop those areas into a base village. So a larger DV would help with that project. But overall you'd be shocked as to how little DVR owns in terms of hotels, real estate, and other amenities. Their focus has alawys been on the skiing operations.

You said ASC and it gave me PTSD. I certainly think that the new gondola is intended to add to year-round business and to address low snow situations. The layout is weird and getting from Werner back to the base is a PITA with that traverse down and around the front ridgeline. But I come back to the question being was this a priority when Northridge is on its last legs and, as someone else said, Tremblant has infrastructure needs as well? We just don't know what specific factors went into the decisionmaking.

Look, NRX is a nice lift and I like it, but trying to compare it's needed replacement to what Wild Blue is to Steamboat are 2 completely separate conversations. Big Blue beyond giving the Boat a TTB lift, gives them badly needed out of their single base portal uphill flow. The original gondola while significantly upgraded plus Christie 6 were nice but inadequate for out of base lift on a resort as big as Steamboat and as crowded. They either needed another high capacity lift or a new second base portal. The later would have been super expensive by comparison. Big Blue also direct links the base to the new above base learners pod.
Flip to the NRX, that lift does none of that. You have the new GMC for out base lift plus Inverness. NRX is a nice lift and gets its use for sure, but it doesn't access the actual summit which is served by the summit quad. So Alterra wanting to replace that and if they keep it detach, you're talking nowadays $10M+, that's a lot for a secondary lift (sorry, I know it serves some great terrain but in its current alignment and other lifts at North, that's what it amounts to). So yeah, I think a lot of Alterra's other moves have been correct in prioritizing over NRX.
Now, had they let HG's old triple fail or limp along, that would have been an issue.

 

[Lotso]

Inverness is on its last legs, I believe

 

[MidnightJester]

SUGARBUSH TODAY

 

[cdskier]

Look, NRX is a nice lift and I like it, but trying to compare it's needed replacement to what Wild Blue is to Steamboat are 2 completely separate conversations. Big Blue beyond giving the Boat a TTB lift, gives them badly needed out of their single base portal uphill flow. The original gondola while significantly upgraded plus Christie 6 were nice but inadequate for out of base lift on a resort as big as Steamboat and as crowded. They either needed another high capacity lift or a new second base portal. The later would have been super expensive by comparison. Big Blue also direct links the base to the new above base learners pod.
Flip to the NRX, that lift does none of that. You have the new GMC for out base lift plus Inverness. NRX is a nice lift and gets its use for sure, but it doesn't access the actual summit which is served by the summit quad. So Alterra wanting to replace that and if they keep it detach, you're talking nowadays $10M+, that's a lot for a secondary lift (sorry, I know it serves some great terrain but in its current alignment and other lifts at North, that's what it amounts to). So yeah, I think a lot of Alterra's other moves have been correct in prioritizing over NRX.
Now, had they let HG's old triple fail or limp along, that would have been an issue.

Considering NRX a secondary lift is a poor take as any ME regular would tell you. That lift allows you to ski the vast majority of key terrain at ME off a single lift. Not going to the summit is not a big deal. There's not a whole lot of terrain above the top of NRX (or below it). The best terrain at ME is mid-mountain or the natural trails on Inverness.

I also don't know what you mean by "new GMC for out base lift". GMX isn't new and has been problematic on and off for a while as well. Inverness was dead last year and hopefully they at least fixed that this off-season.

 

[Hawk]

A little late to the game. We have been talking about this all day.

the snow that is.

 

[thetrailboss]

Look, NRX is a nice lift and I like it, but trying to compare it's needed replacement to what Wild Blue is to Steamboat are 2 completely separate conversations. Big Blue beyond giving the Boat a TTB lift, gives them badly needed out of their single base portal uphill flow. The original gondola while significantly upgraded plus Christie 6 were nice but inadequate for out of base lift on a resort as big as Steamboat and as crowded. They either needed another high capacity lift or a new second base portal. The later would have been super expensive by comparison. Big Blue also direct links the base to the new above base learners pod.
Flip to the NRX, that lift does none of that. You have the new GMC for out base lift plus Inverness. NRX is a nice lift and gets its use for sure, but it doesn't access the actual summit which is served by the summit quad. So Alterra wanting to replace that and if they keep it detach, you're talking nowadays $10M+, that's a lot for a secondary lift (sorry, I know it serves some great terrain but in its current alignment and other lifts at North, that's what it amounts to). So yeah, I think a lot of Alterra's other moves have been correct in prioritizing over NRX.
Now, had they let HG's old triple fail or limp along, that would have been an issue.

I get what you’re saying, but if you were a SB regular and owned property there then you’d have a different take. Plus you’re not considering what I said about considering less expensive lift options (8 vs 10, fixed grips at DV) in the equation.

 

[Hawk]

I am a SB regular, I own proberty and pay taxes and I ski there about 40 to 50 days a year. Not to mention all the time we spend in the spring summer and fall hikeing and biking. The way I look at this is simple. I understand that these things cost money and Altera has started paying for upgrades. The Northridge lift may not be replaced in the next year or two but it is on the radar. John Hamond said that they are replacing parts and electronics and that should make it more stable for this interim period. I am totaly OK with this and have no issues. Also most of the people that I know are disapointed but they also understand the business climate and are willing to wait. There will be no revolt here.

Win Smith had said multiple times that the process of upgrading infrastructure was extremely hard and costly as an independant. He and his partners invested what they were willing to invest and then got creative with the EB-5 process for the rest. Fortunately for them it worked out OK unlike Jay. But after that the net profits were not going to cover the costs of 20 years of defered maintenance and upgrades. They would need a new capital partner or sell it out right. The decision to sell to Altera was made because they have deep pockets and would be willing to spend money. So far they have done much more then Win could have done with snomaing upgrades, a new lift, upgrades to the shark and multiple piping and pump replacements to keep the system running. On the contrary, most of us are not outraged or take issue with Altera like you do.

 

[doublediamond]

If it's not financial viable to replace NRX, why not pull a Boyne... replace Super Bravo with a 6 with slatted backs for wind resistance and refurbish it to replace NRX?

 

[cdskier]

The Northridge lift may not be replaced in the next year or two but it is on the radar. John Hamond said that they are replacing parts and electronics and that should make it more stable for this interim period. I am totaly OK with this and have no issues. Also most of the people that I know are disapointed but they also understand the business climate and are willing to wait. There will be no revolt here.

IF that works, great. We've heard that before though so I'll believe it when I see it.

If that doesn't work and NRX ends up having significant downtime again, then I wouldn't put money on there not being a revolt. I know I've defended them in the past (mainly predicated on the fact the replacement was supposedly imminent to finally put the issues completely to bed), but I won't continue to do so if it does have further issues.

 

[Newpylong]

Removing a 35 year lift (NRX) and reinstalling a 30 year old lift (SBE even refurbished) is likely not the wisest move. If cost is the only driving issue it would make the most sense to re-use the existing towers and just replace the terminals. The concrete and steel are a huge part of the install cost and are likely fine for another 30 years. There is the possibility at that point since they would just be dealing with the steel nearly all mechanical vestiges of the original GMX and Poma would be removed. If Dopp wanted to just replace the sheaves they could do that.

 

[cdskier]

Removing a 35 year lift (NRX) and reinstalling a 30 year old lift (SBE even refurbished) is likely not the wisest move. If cost is the only driving issue it would make the most sense to re-use the existing towers and just replace the terminals. The concrete and steel are a huge part of the install cost and are likely fine for another 30 years. There is the possibility at that point since they would just be dealing with the steel nearly all mechanical vestiges of the original GMX and Poma would be removed. If Dopp wanted to just replace the sheaves they could do that.

Agreed. Not only is Super Bravo older age wise, it also would have the most hours of any of SB's express lifts as it has historically been used for both summer and fall ops as well (in addition to being one of the first lifts to open and close to last to close during the winter). Moving that lift would not make much sense.

 

[MadPadraic]

If it's not financial viable to replace NRX, why not pull a Boyne... replace Super Bravo with a 6 with slatted backs for wind resistance and refurbish it to replace NRX?

Six packs are the devil and shouldn't be installed anywhere. The possible exception would be somewhere where they are providing an escape from a busy base area that is only ridden once a day when you commute away.

 

[Smellytele]

Six packs are the devil and shouldn't be installed anywhere. The possible exception would be somewhere where they are providing an escape from a busy base area that is only ridden once a day when you commute away.

How about an 8 or 10?

 

[Hawk]

When I ski in Europe there is nothing but 6's and 8's trams and gondolas. They all work and they are nice.

 

[HowieT2]

Considering NRX a secondary lift is a poor take as any ME regular would tell you. That lift allows you to ski the vast majority of key terrain at ME off a single lift. Not going to the summit is not a big deal. There's not a whole lot of terrain above the top of NRX (or below it). The best terrain at ME is mid-mountain or the natural trails on Inverness.

I also don't know what you mean by "new GMC for out base lift". GMX isn't new and has been problematic on and off for a while as well. Inverness was dead last year and hopefully they at least fixed that this off-season.

Agreed. It’s definitely disappointing not getting a new nrx especially for regulars but I guess replacing it doesn’t do anything in terms of marketing. It’s not like a new nrx will bring anyone to ski Mellon. And there’s no real estate to sell.
Whether what theyre doing makes sense financially depends on how much money theyre putting into the old lift and we dont know that. Personally, if replacing the nrx with a fixed grip quad would happen sooner than a detachable, I’d take the fixed grip.