The "Sugarbush Thread"

[Cheetah440]

So I ask, where is all of our investment? The plan was not for us to increase revenue/Skiers to pay for the upgrades. It was susposed to come from Altera. I think the focus is misplaced by blaming Sugarbush and the Management.

They gave you a new HG chair. That will be all.
DV has needs.

 

[thetrailboss]

So we did not have the capital to buy new lifts, goomers, install snowmaking and complete the overwhelming defered maintenence. That is why Win Sold to Altera. Supposedly they have big pockets. I was just at Palasades-Alpine and they have a brand new $65 M base to base gondola. So I ask, where is all of our investment? The plan was not for us to increase revenue/Skiers to pay for the upgrades. It was susposed to come from Altera. I think the focus is misplaced by blaming Sugarbush and the Management.

Your IKON pass revenue is going to Steamboat, Deer Valley, and Palisades as well as acquiring A-Basin and Schweitzer.

 

[solar]

So we did not have the capital to buy new lifts, goomers, install snowmaking and complete the overwhelming defered maintenence. That is why Win Sold to Altera. Supposedly they have big pockets. I was just at Palasades-Alpine and they have a brand new $65 M base to base gondola. So I ask, where is all of our investment? The plan was not for us to increase revenue/Skiers to pay for the upgrades. It was susposed to come from Altera. I think the focus is misplaced by blaming Sugarbush and the Management.

Big capital, perhaps, but I imagine they'd still expect Sugarbush to be able to demonstrate it's value as a loss-leader or if it's incapable of operating profitably on it's own. ...am I missing a consideration? Simply to keep it out of the hands of Boyne?

 

[Hawk]

Ahhh. HG was a passifier. Then they nixed Northridge. Hmmmm

 

[Hawk]

Your IKON pass revenue is going to Steamboat, Deer Valley, and Palisades as well as acquiring A-Basin and Schweitzer.

TB is trying to convert me over to the IKON Sucks thread. LOL I still love the benefits, not so much on the impacts I guess.

 

[SkiTheEast]

So we did not have the capital to buy new lifts, goomers, install snowmaking and complete the overwhelming defered maintenence. That is why Win Sold to Altera. Supposedly they have big pockets. I was just at Palasades-Alpine and they have a brand new $65 M base to base gondola. So I ask, where is all of our investment? The plan was not for us to increase revenue/Skiers to pay for the upgrades. It was susposed to come from Altera. I think the focus is misplaced by blaming Sugarbush and the Management.

The headline number for Sugarbush investments in the last 3 years was something in the ballpark of $30m+ between snowmaking improvements on Ellen, the new weir/improvements on the LP snowmaking pond, new guns and pipe on LP, new HG, 4-5 new groomers, Sugar Lodge renovation, Paradise purchase, golf course stuff, Tuckers coffee, more stuff that I'm too lazy to look up. For the most part I see that as just trying to get on firmer footing, obv not flashy big ticket items - with most focused on the revenue generation side (more places to spend $$)

We'd all like them to do more especially when we see 18 lift projects announcements at DV and other Alterra resorts - I think as we've been talking about it would be nice to hear what the longer term vision is - i.e. more communication. I've got to think there is some sort of master plan that local management works with Alterra on. Perhaps there isn't one. Either way, we're not entitled to it but that doesn't mean we're not going to speculate in its absence.

 

[1dog]

Look at DV, 18 more lifts. 18. LOL

ROI - Question and point is do most of those lifts have RE development in and around them? Jordan is right there ( read: 4 season use/water views).


Could SB have received even a paltry slice of those 18? Sure, but if you're the investment guy borrowing and spending for your company- the question remains: ROI?

 

[thetrailboss]

ROI - Question and point is do most of those lifts have RE development in and around them? Jordan is right there ( read: 4 season use/water views).


Could SB have received even a paltry slice of those 18? Sure, but if you're the investment guy borrowing and spending for your company- the question remains: ROI?

I know we've talked about it in the Deer Valley thread, but the Mayflower expansion is not owned by DV. It's owned by Extel under a shady state law that allows for pretty much unregulated development in this area. DV and Alterra are "operating" the ski area and it was a shotgun wedding. Surprisingly, Deer Valley has very little real estate to develop as Edgar Stern and company sold a lot of it off to survive and focused on the ski area itself. That said, Alterra/DVR is very eager to develop the Snow Park area and get rid of that huge parking lot to make a base village. It's controversial. That development surely benefits from this expansion.

 

[thetrailboss]

TB is trying to convert me over to the IKON Sucks thread. LOL I still love the benefits, not so much on the impacts I guess.

As I've said before, "we'll see" what happens with SB. I'd be very concerned about the removal of any mention of a NRX replacement.

 

[NewEnglander77]

It is not an amorphous thing known as the "Town", it is your neighbors and residents in Warren that are driving the decisions about development.

Understood and agreed, however it takes some leadership from the community to move the needle there. I don't think the resort does near a good enough job either of being vocal and making the case. Maybe that's just because it isn't a priority. Someone with a voice has to step up and make the case and rally the troops behind them. Admittedly, I have not been willing to do that and therefore I can't just sit back and point fingers. I'm just pointing out what I see in a host community that maybe takes for granted what helps sustain them economically.

 

[thetrailboss]

Understood and agreed, however it takes some leadership from the community to move the needle there. I don't think the resort does near a good enough job either of being vocal and making the case. Maybe that's just because it isn't a priority. Someone with a voice has to step up and make the case and rally the troops behind them. Admittedly, I have not been willing to do that and therefore I can't just sit back and point fingers. I'm just pointing out what I see in a host community that maybe takes for granted what helps sustain them economically.

I agree. You do realize though that for some in Vermont being a protestor is a full time job, yes?

 

[Cheetah440]

Ahhh. HG was a passifier. Then they nixed Northridge. Hmmmm

HG is a major organ, if that was lost it’s catastrophic. They had to upgrade it. I’m sure you agree NRX is too, but Alterra doesn’t. Sbush is a money pit, always has been and always will be. All east coast ski areas are. Alterra needed it to lock in pass holders on the East coast who would take trips our West. They aren’t in this to make sugarbush great, they are in it to suck as much out of every Ikon pass holder and that happens out West. They even admitted they have no plans to grown visits….

 

[HowieT2]

I know we've talked about it in the Deer Valley thread, but the Mayflower expansion is not owned by DV. It's owned by Extel under a shady state law that allows for pretty much unregulated development in this area. DV and Alterra are "operating" the ski area and it was a shotgun wedding. Surprisingly, Deer Valley has very little real estate to develop as Edgar Stern and company sold a lot of it off to survive and focused on the ski area itself. That said, Alterra/DVR is very eager to develop the Snow Park area and get rid of that huge parking lot to make a base village. It's controversial. That development surely benefits from this expansion.

doesnt the dv development include something like 4 hotels and a lot of real estate?
they’re basically building a whole new resort onto dv.
that is a whole different ballgame from replacing the nrx with no development or even terrain expansion for that matter.
seems to me in order to spend the money to replace the nrx some kind of expansion is going to have to come with it.

whatever, it keeps snowing. rock skis this weekend or break out the new boards? Decisions, decisions

 

[HowieT2]

HG is a major organ, if that was lost it’s catastrophic. They had to upgrade it. I’m sure you agree NRX is too, but Alterra doesn’t. Sbush is a money pit, always has been and always will be. All east coast ski areas are. Alterra needed it to lock in pass holders on the East coast who would take trips our West. They aren’t in this to make sugarbush great, they are in it to suck as much out of every Ikon pass holder and that happens out West. They even admitted they have no plans to grown visits….

I was thinking about that this morning. The Sbx is a luxury lift that scores marketing points with vacationers but isn’t important to regulars. Whereas the nrx doesn’t do anything for marketing to vacationers because all the trails are served by other lifts, but is vital to the mt Ellen skiing experience of regulars because it’s the only way to lap the mountain.

 

[thetrailboss]

doesnt the dv development include something like 4 hotels and a lot of real estate?
they’re basically building a whole new resort onto dv.
that is a whole different ballgame from replacing the nrx with no development or even terrain expansion for that matter.
seems to me in order to spend the money to replace the nrx some kind of expansion is going to have to come with it.

whatever, it keeps snowing. rock skis this weekend or break out the new boards? Decisions, decisions

Yes. That development, owned and managed by Extel, includes all of that.

And as I have said before, Alterra certainly could have shifted some things to get the funding to replace NRX. Specifically, DVR could have certainly phased the project a bit slower or opted for less expensive lift options than they did. For example, there is no need for a Bubble D-Line 6 to serve as a short connector lift that serves a limited vertical. That is just foolish money IMHO. Anyone who has been recently knows that the Burns Express and Homestake Express are HSQ's with respective ride times of 90 seconds and 102 seconds. Fixed grips would suffice there. Those are a real waste of HSQ lifts and money IMHO.

 

[NewEnglander77]

I agree. You do realize though that for some in Vermont being a protestor is a full time job, yes?

Yes, there are plenty who don't want change or growth. However, many people that I have spoken to including long-time locals, transplants and part timers would support changes in zoning or whatever is necessary to allow the resort to develop their their employee housing. Everybody is feeling the pain of the local businesses suffering and closing due to lack of employees etc. They're just not motivated and don't have an easy path to voicing their opinion on it. Again, I think it comes back to someone taking the lead. Seems to me like the onus is on Sugarbush to rally the troops if they are motivated to make this development happen. It was mentioned in an earlier post that it was shelved for financial reasons.

 

[thetrailboss]

Yes, there are plenty who don't want change or growth. However, many people that I have spoken to including long-time locals, transplants and part timers would support changes in zoning or whatever is necessary to allow the resort to develop their their employee housing. Everybody is feeling the pain of the local businesses suffering and closing due to lack of employees etc. They're just not motivated and don't have an easy path to voicing their opinion on it. Again, I think it comes back to someone taking the lead. Seems to me like the onus is on Sugarbush to rally the troops if they are motivated to make this development happened. It was mentioned in an earlier post that it was shelved for financial reasons.

I completely agree. It is unfortunate that the vocal minority continue to stymy such things and ultimately cause a lot of pain for others.

 

[Blurski]

I agree. You do realize though that for some in Vermont being a protestor is a full time job, yes?

For sure, to show how crazy some are in VT. somehow the house has agreed to sue the large petroleum companies for the damages caused by flooding, blaming them for global warming all with VT tax payer money. Can't imagine how many millions VT will spend on this, the petroleum company have endless money & layers, such a joke.

 

[Lotso]

So as a 3-decade Valley resident, I know how some folks here opposed the snowmaking at South/LP, Slide Brook, etc. I do not recall seeing any official opposition to the Sugarbush housing plan. Can someone post a link to reporting on that? I remember the requet/plan going in from Sugarbush, but don't recall it meeting opposition that killed it. I also could have missed it...

I, for one, know this is a company town(s) and ultimately we all need Sugarbush to prosper. That is why I am so frustrated watching the missteps this year. I hope they can do better.

 

[tumbler]

Yes, there are plenty who don't want change or growth. However, many people that I have spoken to including long-time locals, transplants and part timers would support changes in zoning or whatever is necessary to allow the resort to develop their their employee housing. Everybody is feeling the pain of the local businesses suffering and closing due to lack of employees etc. They're just not motivated and don't have an easy path to voicing their opinion on it. Again, I think it comes back to someone taking the lead. Seems to me like the onus is on Sugarbush to rally the troops if they are motivated to make this development happen. It was mentioned in an earlier post that it was shelved for financial reasons.

The suffering business owners need to speak up too not just Sugarbush. It's crazy how many restaurants have closed or cannot operate on a full time schedule. Talk to some of the help and many of them are driving over an hour each way to get to work. Imagine where SB would be without the J-1 program.