Trail Poaching

[Tin Woodsman]

I duck ropes occasionally, but only in certain circumstances. For example, sometimes Sugarbush inexplicably leaves Lower Castlerock roped off even when the snow is great, requiring you to take Bailout. I ducked once or twice when coverage started to improve in early Feb last year and found only deep powder all the way down. Sometimes, I think Patrol just has other things to do and doesn't get to it. My view is that you shouldn't do it often, but in cases where you have experience to know what conditions are like and can handle anything that the trail may through at you, it shouldn't be a problem. I'll never get over the day I was lectured by a Mt. Sneaux patroller after poaching an absolutely gorgeous and untracked Olympic. With the glare ice and gomer factor over on Fallen Timbers, I'd say it was a whole hell of a lot more dangerous than what I skied, with a partner no less. Sometimes, rules are meant to be broken, but be smart about it.

 

[riverc0il]

interesting point here regarding the boy who cried wolf factor. if trails are regularly roped that shouldn't be and ski great when ducking, a reinforcement factor becomes evident. people learn that when you duck, you get the best snow on the mountain.

ski areas would be wise to take note that they are unintentionally providing reinforcement and increasing the likelihood of rope duckers when they close trails that should be open. everyone here that has partaken in rope ducking has indicated that they don't want to do it, but when conditions are beautiful... even better than the open trails in many cases, it is a no brainer. however, if people who ducked rope often found that it was pointless to do so because the trail really did suck and shouldn't be skied, people would stop ducking rope!

moral of the story? don't rope trails when they could be opened with expert only signage and skied by good skiers with ease.

also, it seems important to note the new england ski areas are unlike places out west in that rope duckers in new england don't have to worry about cliffs. the only hazzard of rope ducking in new england is running out of snow or getting injured where patrol can't find you.

 

[thetrailboss]

I do agree with you, Riv, that many ski areas do rope off areas that are ready for skiing...

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

moral of the story? don't rope trails when they could be opened with expert only signage and skied by good skiers with ease.

In theory that makes sense, but the reality is alot of people who think they are experts are not. Another thing is signage that said that would be viewed as a challenge to all sort of gapers and posers.

I'm a personal responsibility kinda guy and have always advocated a ski at your own risk policy. The problem is people expect to be rescued no matter what the risk to the rescuers and they don't want to pay for the rescue necessitated by the risk they choose to take.

 

[Son of Drifter]

No fair Willy

FHW wrote ".....Empire on a powder day?! C'mon SOD!)"
You know I loooove that trail :lol: . And on a power day it is the best skiing on the mountain. I do still wait until the rope is down or I cut through the glades and hope that the entrance/exit about 100 feet down Empire isn't roped off. The key to that trail is stay on the edges all the big rocks are in the middle. You also make an excellent point DON'T CRY IF YOU DUCK AND GET YOUR TICKET PULLED. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

 

[Bosefius]

My feelings I think kind of sum up a lot of the responses here. You have to use a bit of common sense. As rivercOIL pointed out, you need to be responsible for your own rescue. So don't do it alone. Then there is the ability thing...you need to be able to honestly judge your own ability and be able to say no if it is above you. And I also agree you should be somewhat familiar with the terrain so you know what is coming at you. I've ducked a few ropes in my day but the one that got me was Gore Mt. I went into an area that wasn't roped (farther down it was but not where we went in), had perfect coverage, and was really just a short pass through some trees into a side open area. The patrol lectured my friends and I and wasted a bunch of our time. We had to go to their "court" which was just an informal meeting in their patrol shack. I lost a lot of respect for Gore at that time. It has played a bit of a role in my passholding too. I haven't held a season's pass their since. I had other problems with their ski patrol too so this wasn't the sole reason, but if you don't want people to ski an area, I firmly believe, it is your responsibility to rope it off. And as also stated before, stuff that has perfect coverage and no unusal hazzards should be open to ski.

 

[Lostone]

I suppose the difference lies in how you got up the hill. By riding a lift, you've agreed to abide by the rules on the lift ticket or pass. An injury on an unpatrolled trail is an injury on an unpatrolled trail though. Thoughts?

1) I agree and as you would have to pay for rescue were you to be injured on a closed area, you should also have to pay for one on a closed trail.

B) Why would a trail be roped if it is good? There are only so many patrollers. Some of them need to stay on top. I think every trail has to be checked before being opened. If the trail is roped, it might be they just haven't gotten to it, or there could be a skating rink leading to a boulder or dragon's mouth. :blink:

III) They should always pull the pass when finding someone poaching a closed trail. Other than that a lawyer could say that they aren't serious about not allowing people to ski closed trails, because they allow people to do it with no penalties. :roll:

 

[salida]

I poached a trail at Bretton Woods last Friday. I spoke to this guy on a lift who poached it previously in the day and he gave me the conditions. (Powder Powder Powder!) It seems that they never opened the trail because they wanted to pack it down for Saturday. My last run of the day, my buddy and I ducked the rope and had the best run of the season so far. I respect patrol as well and typically won't duck .... but this was too good to pass up.

I might have been that guy...


As for this topic...

I like trails like I like my eggs... poached

No for real, what ever happened to personal responsibility. If a trail is closed and you get hurt on it ducking a rope you should pay for the evac. As for punishment for ducking... nothing as long as you don't get hurt. Ropes should be a deterant for beginners, but their should be no punishment for those who make it out, those who don't pay to get themselves out of there.

WHY SHOULD THE SKI AREA DECIDE WHO CAN SKI THE TRAIL, LET THE PERSON DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES, IF THEY GET HURT ITS THEIR OWN FAULT AND THE SKI AREA ISN'T LIABLE

AKA Personal Responsibility

 

[LVNLARG]

WHY SHOULD THE SKI AREA DECIDE WHO CAN SKI THE TRAIL

Oh dear. Let's try.. BECAUSE IT'S THEIR PROPERTY. :blink: Let's also try...because you'll likely sue them when you get hurt anyway. :blink: If I left it at that ..your counter argument I'm sure would be...Well....I paid for a ticket...I can do whatever I want. Yes...you paid for a ticket....to ski the trails listed as open when you purchased said ticket. :idea: Let's go one step further and elaborate on that even and put that into clearly understandable terms with a reverse situation:

You have a party at your house (your house in this case is the ski hill..and you are the owner). The party area (the open trail report)..like most...comprises of the kitchen, deck, living room, games room and a washroom as laid out to those arriving by you. Area's not to be entered would be defined by closed doors....like..the master bedroom. 1 hour into the party you find me in your master bedroom rifling thru your wife's underwear drawer. What are you gonna do? Ask me to leave...BECAUSE IT'S YOUR PROPERTY.. and behavior would be unacceptable to you. I tell you to go $%^# yourself. This is also unacceptable to you and you drag me out of the house during which I get injured. Guess what...I can...and do sue you because you actually did invite me to your house.

Sound fair? Not likely...nor is the foolishness you were talking about in terms of ski areas should let you do what you want. :blink: Would you ever want me at your house again? NO! THAT is why trail poachers should be issued PPA's (Protection of Property orders) to keep those found poaching off the resort property for atleast a year ...never mind ripping up tickets....because poachers are about their greatest liability.

Actually..in writing this...I got to thinking myself. I wonder if ski resorts posted no trespassing signs on closed trails would negate their liability and give them a better footing in suits and better ability to take legal action on those not abiding by the rules thru trespass law. :idea:

I came up with an idea to solve lift breakdown liability yeasterday....maybe one to solve this problem today....by the end of the week I'm going to have resorts not having to carry liability insurance :lol: :beer:

 

[riverc0il]

B) Why would a trail be roped if it is good?

sorry to put it this bluntly, but spoken like a man who has never experienced a foot of fresh on a roped trail. trails are closed all the time that have excellent snow, often times the best snow on the mountain. put another way, why else would any one in their right mind duck a rope? hard core skiers enjoy skiing good snow in good conditions. the issue that causes rope ducking is two fold, but mostly conservative trail openings. it goes back to reinforcement, if i ducked a rope and 4 out of 5 times it wasn't worth it, i'd stop doing it. not that i am condoning the practice, just putting for the reasoning behind it.

all that said, if any one has to rescue my ass, i would open up my wallet and gladly pay for any and all expenses. as with avalanche safety equipment though, the trick is not to need such a resque. same rules apply, use your head.

 

[salida]

Sound fair? Not likely...nor is the foolishness you were talking about in terms of ski areas should let you do what you want. :

I'm not advocating property rights, they can kick whoever they want off, I'm advocating them letting the skier decide which trail is right for them, closed or not.

LIKE I SAID PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY


Again, why can't we make our own decisions and face the consequences. The ticket clearly states, already negating their liabilit closed trails or open ones, that if you get hurt its your own fault, not the ski areas.

Sure, I'd love to ski in a world where other people decide what decisions are right for me, and make up my mind for me. But until that day looks like I'll have to make my own decisions, and reap the consequences.

 

[LVNLARG]

[quote="salida
LIKE I SAID PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY


[/quote]

Unfortunately...the answer to this is "Because you live in the United States of America". You are therefore subject to the woes of a legal system gone mad. Before anyone attacks me...Canada isn't much better..it's a little better ...but not much. I think if you want to make your own decisions and take your own responsibility...you'll need to move somewhere like Russia. :-?

 

[catskills]

Again, why can't we make our own decisions and face the consequences.

:roll: hahaha what planet do you live on?

Why can't I drive a motorcycle without a helmet? Why can't I drive my car without a seat belt? Why can't I take a drug that is not approved by the FDA? Need I say more?

Lawyers in the USA would have to find another job that's why.

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

Unfortunately...the answer to this is "Because you live in the United States of America". You are therefore subject to the woes of a legal system gone mad. Before anyone attacks me...Canada isn't much better..it's a little better ...but not much. I think if you want to make your own decisions and take your own responsibility...you'll need to move somewhere like Russia. :-?

Well what do ya know, a Canadian taking a shot at how things are done in America. How unusual. Plus moving to Russia for more personal freedom is clearly the way to go. Comon LVN, you're probably a good guy, but give it a break with this stuff.

 

[salida]

:roll: hahaha what planet do you live on?

If I'm not mistaken my states motto is "Live Free or Die"

 

[skibum1321]

Oh dear. Let's try.. BECAUSE IT'S THEIR PROPERTY. :blink:

Well the trails aren't actually their property. As stated earlier, most of these resorts are on state land - not private property. Hence, they can't stop people from hiking up the mountain and skiing down.

 

[thetrailboss]

WHY SHOULD THE SKI AREA DECIDE WHO CAN SKI THE TRAIL, LET THE PERSON DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES, IF THEY GET HURT ITS THEIR OWN FAULT AND THE SKI AREA ISN'T LIABLE

AKA Personal Responsibility

If only it were that simple...

 

[Treeskier]

The MT's are learning

In the past few years it has gotten to be gray. Case in point when Sugarbush and other MT's would show people hiking for their turns before they open. But then try to say that the same trail is closed when lifts are open. That said, I do feel...at least at Sugarbush...they have found the light. Case in point look how much open terain was availible last weekend. Good powder turns followed by back powder bumps with Rocks. But it was your choice to ski it. It was open. The only trails not open where Tumbler (which has some very sharp pointed rocks that need to be covered with hay for early skiing)and lower FIS (who's run out is very low mt and can be too thin for a snow mobile to retreive an injured person) Hats off to them.

As for skiing a tree run that crosses a closed trail. It seems the policy is that as long as you got to the tree run from an open trail and only cross it but then come out on a open trail this is overlooked. Hiking for your turns seems to be allowed becouse at that point it is not open or closed or patroled (like Mad River this weekend). Sort of like hiking in the summer and twisting your ankle. The MT is not resposible. I do argee that this change at Sugarbush has come from leaving marginal trails closed and everyone poaching or complaining. When ever skiing off piece make sure your prepared and with a group.

Doing my snow dance!!!!

 

[trailertrash]

issues

there are a lot of issues at play here. the biggest one is this attitude from most people that they are knowledgeable enough to decide on their own if the trail is ok for them to ski. this is complete bs. another issue is the lack of rule enforcement in general from ski mtns. if you look arround on a busy day its a free-for-all at a large mtn. i see people duck ropes right in front of ambassadors and nothing happens. people have this attitude that it is all about them having a good time period. "screw the mtn and whatever plans they may have for a roped off trail, i paid for my ticket damnit and im gonna have a good time! It is all about me! Me! Me! Me!" if you get hurt ducking a rope there is no question you should be prosecuted. i love seeing the dumba$$'s at resorts that ski in the trees below lifts and think they are hardcore back country explorers cause they arent on the trail then they get stuck and have to walk out. moron!

 

[JimG.]

Is it possible that state rescue agencies are starting to put more pressure on resorts to monitor poaching and, more importantly, OB access?

I've read alot over the past few seasons about the cost of rescues being billed to those rescued; perhaps the states have determined that it would just be easier to bill the resort and then let the resort haggle with the rescuee.

It would be fairly typical of state government to take that approach.

As for my policy...when in the trees, make sure you've got three. If one gets injured, one goes for help and the third stays with the victim. Be smart.