Trail Poaching

[sledhaulingmedic]

Oh dear. Let's try.. BECAUSE IT'S THEIR PROPERTY. :blink:

Well the trails aren't actually their property. As stated earlier, most of these resorts are on state land - not private property. Hence, they can't stop people from hiking up the mountain and skiing down.

Wait...most of what trails are on state land? Even the few areas in the East that are on State (or Federal, for that matter) the land is leased to the resort operator. Now some leases MAY stipulate public access, but in general, the Leasee has the similar rights of private property as an owner.

The individual resort management's aversity to risk (and the State's legal climate) tend to drive the tolerance for poaching. Smaller, privately owned resorts in states with strong legislative and judicial protection for resorts (such as NH)"generally" are more tollerent. The resorts of the Corporates tend to have the poaching policy defined by their "Risk Manangement" department (sometimes called the "Customer Repellent" department.)

Unfortunately, the ski experience has been increasingly effect by the legal system, starting, most notably with Sunday vs. Stratton. I don;t foresee that changing anytime soon

 

[LVNLARG]

Oh dear. Let's try.. BECAUSE IT'S THEIR PROPERTY. :blink:

Well the trails aren't actually their property. As stated earlier, most of these resorts are on state land - not private property. Hence, they can't stop people from hiking up the mountain and skiing down.

Wait...most of what trails are on state land? Even the few areas in the East that are on State (or Federal, for that matter) the land is leased to the resort operator. Now some leases MAY stipulate public access, but in general, the Leasee has the similar rights of private property as an owner.

The individual resort management's aversity to risk (and the State's legal climate) tend to drive the tolerance for poaching. Smaller, privately owned resorts in states with strong legislative and judicial protection for resorts (such as NH)"generally" are more tollerent. The resorts of the Corporates tend to have the poaching policy defined by their "Risk Manangement" department (sometimes called the "Customer Repellent" department.)

Unfortunately, the ski experience has been increasingly effect by the legal system, starting, most notably with Sunday vs. Stratton. I don;t foresee that changing anytime soon

Thank you, Thank you and Thank you for saving me having to answer this one. This one can also be explained with another more easily understandable situation: If you go shopping and come out to find someone you don't know in "YOUR" leased car....are you going to have something to say about it? You're damn right you are. :blink:

 

[LVNLARG]

Well what do ya know, a Canadian taking a shot at how things are done in America. How unusual. Plus moving to Russia for more personal freedom is clearly the way to go. Comon LVN, you're probably a good guy, but give it a break with this stuff.

Let's see....the average lawsuit award in the US is actually in the neighborhood of something gross like 47 times higher than one here in Canada. How about : Some jackass life insurance comes to your house on a Sunday in the freezing rain. After bothering you for 5 minutes he leaves...slipping and falling down your stairs due to the freezing rain. He sues. Probable award in the US? Likely 2 million dollars because you didn't have a "crew" out making your property safe for visitors 24/7.. Probable award in Canada? The judge would likely tell the jackass insurance salesman off for bothering people on a Sunday, that he should understand crap Canadian weather and it's hazards by now at the age of 42, and side with your defending statement that the reason nothing had been done with the ice was because you hadn't got to it yet due to jackass insurance salemen bothering you. Award. Nothing. In fact.. he might award you your court costs. I know which country I'd rather live in for that situation 8)

 

[freeheelwilly]

Well what do ya know, a Canadian taking a shot at how things are done in America. How unusual. Plus moving to Russia for more personal freedom is clearly the way to go. Comon LVN, you're probably a good guy, but give it a break with this stuff.

Let's see....the average lawsuit award in the US is actually in the neighborhood of something gross like 47 times higher than one here in Canada. How about : Some jackass life insurance comes to your house on a Sunday in the freezing rain. After bothering you for 5 minutes he leaves...slipping and falling down your stairs due to the freezing rain. He sues. Probable award in the US? Likely 2 million dollars because you didn't have a "crew" out making your property safe for visitors 24/7.. Probable award in Canada? The judge would likely tell the jackass insurance salesman off for bothering people on a Sunday, that he should understand crap Canadian weather and it's hazards by now at the age of 42, and side with your defending statement that the reason nothing had been done with the ice was because you hadn't got to it yet due to jackass insurance salemen bothering you. Award. Nothing. In fact.. he might award you your court costs. I know which country I'd rather live in for that situation 8)

As somebody who occasionally represents injured people all I can say is.....you don't have a clue as to how it works and have been drinking too deeply from the insurance industry's kool-aid jug.

Your idiotic diatribe has given me a headache. Just like your lousy beer. :lol: :lol:

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

Your idiotic diatribe has given me a headache. Just like your lousy beer. :lol: :lol:

Wait a minute Willy, his diatribe may have been idiotic, but Canadian beer is dang good. :wink:

 

[JimG.]

Gentlemen, I'm getting a headache from this whole thread. It's going south real quick and I hope we can get it back on a productive track.

Please, let's try to play nice.

 

[LVNLARG]

Your idiotic diatribe has given me a headache. Just like your lousy beer. :lol: :lol:

Wait a minute Willy, his diatribe may have been idiotic, but Canadian beer is dang good. :wink:

I love my Coors light. (an american beer) :beer:

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

I love my Coors light. (an american beer) :beer:

I like Coors Light too, you can last a long time drinking that. Calling it beer is kind of a stretch though. It's more like water with a beer flavor. It's hard to drink yourself stupid on that stuff.

 

[freeheelwilly]

Your idiotic diatribe has given me a headache. Just like your lousy beer. :lol: :lol:

Wait a minute Willy, his diatribe may have been idiotic, but Canadian beer is dang good. :wink:

ooooo I beg to differ. Waaaaaay overrated! And Coors light ain't beer. Why haven't the Canadians gotten into the whole "micro-brew" thing? Or maybe they have and I just haven't had the pleasure.

 

[mergs]

KBubba on K-Zone posted this:

I just got off the phone with Rich McGarry, VP & GM. The word coming out of Killington is that they will strictly enforce rules on rope ducking closed trails. While they're still drafting a set of guidelines on what to do under different circumstances, including punishments, the word coming out of Killington is "read your pass" and understand the rules.

What's driving this? Apparently someone was seriously hurt this past weekend skiing a closed trail and ski patrol had a difficult time reaching the person. The injury was a broken femur, the largest bone in the body, and patrollers were trashing skis to get there and get down. McGarry is calling this a "defining moment" for them in how they have to approach poaching as it's gotten completely out of hand in their eyes. They want to stop the practice now before something even more serious occurs.

That's all I know for now, though I'm sure there will be more to follow through their official media outlets like The Drift, etc.

Interesting. It brings up the question - how many of you poach closed trails on a regular basis? I for one don't usually (not that I've never done it). My feeling is trails are closed for a reason so I usually stick to officially open trails. I know many people don't even think twice about ducking ropes though.

Here's another question - what is the difference of skiing a closed trail, or earning your turns by hiking a closed mountain and skiing down. Those trails are effectively "closed" too. I suppose the difference lies in how you got up the hill. By riding a lift, you've agreed to abide by the rules on the lift ticket or pass. An injury on an unpatrolled trail is an injury on an unpatrolled trail though. Thoughts?

in the strict context of your post I will answer only to the question of closed "trails", ones that are named trails so to speak.

yeah... its usually really a dopey move to duck a rope and hit a closed "trail". there is usually a reason its closed. i know it from experience and coreshot boards. if i was a patroller and some knucklehead got hurt on a trail that was closed i'd be mildly annnoyed too while fetching his sorry ass.

now, as for ducking ropes to access trees, creek beds, etc its another matter. probably a whole 'nother topic really bc we're talking a diff set of issues and potential consequences.

 

[salida]

Beer and falling insurance sales men...





I'd rather be out skiing

 

[LVNLARG]

I love my Coors light. (an american beer) :beer:

I like Coors Light too, you can last a long time drinking that. Calling it beer is kind of a stretch though. It's more like water with a beer flavor. It's hard to drink yourself stupid on that stuff.

Exactly. I find it "refreshing" like a bottle of water but still satisfies a beer craving. I can also have a couple at a restaurant with supper and not drive home via ditches. Interesting fact. It's 4% here...and 5% in the US....where US beers are usually lower in alcohol content than ours. :blink: We have some micro-brews here...a lot have come and gone due to their beer just plain sucking (including one large one...maritime microbrewies...damn there beer was gross). The actual best selling beer in Canada is Bud! This is due to coast to coast distribution. Keiths is very popular here in the maritimes...Kokanee is very popular in Alberta and BC. Molson products in Ontario. Bud wins thru the ole divide and conquer routine...It loses in every province but overall...it wins. Keiths is now out west and is coming on strong though. :beer:

 

[mergs]

ok... this has gone on long enough... Coors != beer

it may say it on the can :blink: but it ain't beer. and Bud is chilled, carbonated horse piss.

back to your reg scheduled threads. :beer:

 

[BeanoNYC]

I poached a trail at Bretton Woods last Friday. I spoke to this guy on a lift who poached it previously in the day and he gave me the conditions. (Powder Powder Powder!) It seems that they never opened the trail because they wanted to pack it down for Saturday. My last run of the day, my buddy and I ducked the rope and had the best run of the season so far. I respect patrol as well and typically won't duck .... but this was too good to pass up.

I might have been that guy...

Were you talking to two New Yorkers on the lift. One a tall guy in a red jacket with a pair of screams, the other in a blue and grey jacket with a pair of K2 Apache Blackhawks?????? Both of us in our early 30's? You ..... maybe 45-50? If so ... thanks for the tip! You were really nice, I meant to tell you to check out
Alpinezone. PM me and let me know.

 

[Big Game]

Why can't I drive a motorcycle without a helmet?

Sure you can. In many states and on private land.

Why can't I drive my car without a seat belt?

Because the DuPont, who still holds the patent for nylon, the main ingredient in seat belts has lobbied the government and scared the pulbic into beleiving seat belts save lives. Corporate greed, brother. It always comes down to the money.

Why can't I take a drug that is not approved by the FDA?

Sure you can. Just move to Dubai with Michael Jackson. You could do whatever the F you want in Dubai (well as long as you're rich)

Need I say more?

Yes, you're making sense.

Lawyers in the USA would have to find another job that's why.

See, now you're mistaken. Lawyers represent all sides. So if one side gets too strong, it really isn't the fault of the winning side, rather, it is the fault of the losing side who argued like a pu$$y and folded like whipped egg whites into a waffle batter.

 

[BeanoNYC]

Speaking of microbrews .... I have seen the light of Tuckermans and Pigs Ear ... both very tasty.

 

[eatskisleep]

B) Why would a trail be roped if it is good?

Sometimes there may not be a good way back to the lifts from it; or it may have thin cover but still a foot of powder up top that only good skiers who know how to ski powder could ski it without hitting their skis on the grass/rocks/ground below.

 

[salida]

I poached a trail at Bretton Woods last Friday. I spoke to this guy on a lift who poached it previously in the day and he gave me the conditions. (Powder Powder Powder!) It seems that they never opened the trail because they wanted to pack it down for Saturday. My last run of the day, my buddy and I ducked the rope and had the best run of the season so far. I respect patrol as well and typically won't duck .... but this was too good to pass up.

I might have been that guy...

Were you talking to two New Yorkers on the lift. One a tall guy in a red jacket with a pair of screams, the other in a blue and grey jacket with a pair of K2 Apache Blackhawks?????? Both of us in our early 30's? You ..... maybe 45-50? If so ... thanks for the tip! You were really nice, I meant to tell you to check out
Alpinezone. PM me and let me know.

Nope sorry, I'm on teles and im definitely not 50, sorry sir

 

[BeanoNYC]

AWWWW and I thought it was serendipity!

 

[riverc0il]

might i suggest a seperate thread for the beer comments to keep this one on track. i think we might have already had a beer thread so feel free to dig it up.

back on track, i would like to ask those adament against trail poaching if you have ever done any of the following: broken the speed limit, illegally double parked, drunk under age, provided for under age drinkers, used an illegal drug, etc. all against the rules and potentially dangerous to those involved but something most of use have done at one time or another.

my point? i reflected upon this thread at work and realized it is nothing more than your typical ethical dilema between what is right and what is wrong. people 'break the rules' all the time. we have a lot of double standards in this country in which people complain about rule breaking but then break a rule themselves and justify it. i am just asking everyone to take a step back and not see the issue as black and white, because it's not. it IS against the rules, but the issue isn't black and white. most folks poaching want to follow the rules, but sometimes the rules aren't realistic. just like speed limits, drug laws, drinking laws, etc. (oops, i don't want to go there, just substitute any rule you feel isn't realistic and you get the point so we don't get off topic into other ethical areas).

the folks that engage in poaching (or at least from my perspective) feel let down that ski areas rope trails that are skiable. due to litigation and insurance concerns or what ever reason... i don't see ski areas going to bat for their paying customers. i do not see ski areas advocating for the expert skier that wants to rip up a trail that doesn't care about thin cover. post the thin cover and experts only signs, make it look real dangerous, make the entire trail roped except for a three-four foot wide entrance path, make it so folks who normally would poach the trail wouldn't even consider it with all the danger warnings, etc. i say we wouldn't have a poaching issue if the ski areas didn't create one.

one reason i don't poach much any more is because i stopped skiing at places that are conservative with their trail openings. i don't want to be put in the position of having to make that ethical judgement call. i want to ski an area that knows what expert skiers want and are willing to except, post those thin cover and warning signs, and allow people to decide if the base damage is worth it to them.