Trail Poaching

[dmc]

I did not say that I could not handle the terrain, I just respect the decisions of the management of the mountain to close a trail. :-?

I assumed the part about "risking" your body meant you were tentative about the terrain...

My bad - guess I read it wrong...

 

[JimG.]

And, btw, I have seen patrollers at the Church so don't try and preach to me from some high and mighty platform.

This is the part that gets me...OK, go ahead and close a trail, but don't then make it a private playground for patrollers only and then yell at others who decide to join the fun. Classic "do as I say, not as I do" stuff.

If I see a bunch of folks skiing a "closed" run, I don't care if they're only patrollers, I'm going to want to ski that run too.

The part that really gets me is saying that you shouldn't ski anything off the map. Just because it isn't on the map doesn't mean it shouldn't be skied. That's the point I was trying to make with the Church.

I know, but I didn't want to go off completely on the OB issue...3/4 of the folks I run into OB are patrollers.

 

[ski_adk]

It's a personal decision on poaching. I've done it a couple times and wow was it worth it!!! Never got caught...actually, a few times, patrollers who have seen me waiting next to a rope have given me advice like "stay right, it's sweet" or "watch the rocks about 3/4 of the way down".

Just remember, if you get hurt out there, you are responsible for your rescue. If the patrollers ruin their sticks getting to you, if people have to take time out of their day to find you or S&R have to be called because you're busted up somewhere, then you have to compensate those folks. Do the crime, do the time.

 

[loafer89]

I did not say that I could not handle the terrain, I just respect the decisions of the management of the mountain to close a trail. :-?

I assumed the part about "risking" your body meant you were tentative about the terrain...

My bad - guess I read it wrong...

No harm, while I respect the trail closings I do not always agree with them. Great Bear was open last weekend, but had a rather large water bar across the whole trail, that you had to ski over very carefully and yet the trail was still open.

Vertigo was closed on the upper part with tracked out snow, but great coverage, while the lower part was open with good coverage, but with really thick weeds poking through that made turns difficult??

 

[riverc0il]

good post, i don't agree with many of your points, but i highly respect them and respect for patrol is the number one reason i think twice about ducking and often decide against it. that said...

On the mountain I patrol we (as patrollers) are instructed to look at a trail as an expert skier would look at a trail. If an expert can get down then open the trail. Of course, it's a little different if it's not an expert trail but most people want to poach the expert trails.

do you patrol for MRG or magic? because i have yet to ski ANY area other than these two that honestly follows this policy regarding trail openings. if this was true, 'expert skiers' wouldn't duck ropes and if they did, they wouldn't find it worth their while, which they often do. i respect your views and your ppoints, but your arguement doesn't add up to would be poachers.

if you have time, do read through all the posts in this thread as many of the reasons for doing so have been made, and many hold water, within reason and within caveats. it is technically wrong and has potential for problems, but the moral issue has obviously been justified and you need to counter those arguements if you want to change people's opinion on the subject matter.

my opinion stands that if patrol find poaching to be a problem, i think they would serve their cause best by opening questionable trails that way skiers get to better understand that a rope really does mean it ain't worth it.

 

[GadgetRick]

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. I understand where you are coming from with not skiing closed trails, but just because something isn't a marked trail does not mean it isn't skiable. Let's look at the Bush for example - Slidebrook isn't marked, the Exterminator woods were never marked until last year, the Church isn't marked. And, btw, I have seen patrollers at the Church so don't try and preach to me from some high and mighty platform. I could go on, but I think (or hope) you see my point. Not everything is or should be marked.

I never said just because something is marked it's not skiable. What I'm saying is, just because something is not marked as a trail and is considered out of bounds, by law (in most states with ski areas from what I know), you are not allowed to ski it. You are also risking the health of yourself and others.

I am also not trying to preach from any platform, I'm telling you what the deal is. If you (or anyone) doesn't like the rules which are set by the mountain you are skiing at you have the option of going somewhere else. It's not YOUR mountain, it is owned by someone else and they make the rules, not YOU. Just because you saw some patrollers doing something doesn't mean you know the story. Do you know for sure they were skiing somewhere they weren't supposed to without a reason (e.g. looking for some dummy who may have skied down there)?

A trail doesn't have to be, "marked," to be able to ski it. However, typically, if a trail (here in the East) is not marked it usually means it's out of bounds.

No, I do not see your point.

This is the part that gets me...OK, go ahead and close a trail, but don't then make it a private playground for patrollers only and then yell at others who decide to join the fun. Classic "do as I say, not as I do" stuff.

I agree...as long as they were truly just skiing a trail for the fun of it. Sometimes we will get a report of someone being down on a trail and we've got to go check that trail. I don't know anything about the incidents you're talking about so I can't comment specifically about them. Just know there may have been a reason for them being there you don't know about. Or, they could have just been breaking the rules, which I do not agree with either.

The part that really gets me is saying that you shouldn't ski anything off the map. Just because it isn't on the map doesn't mean it shouldn't be skied. That's the point I was trying to make with the Church.

If it's not on the map it probably means it's not a legal trail. Unfortunately, due to all of the lawyers out there, this means stay out of those areas. Are there areas on the mountain I patrol at which could be opened? Sure. But they're not, for a reason. The state regulates the amount of trails you can have open at any given resort. So, there are areas where we could ski which we're not allowed. Just because an area is skiable does not mean you're allowed to or should ski it.

Just remember, if you get hurt out there, you are responsible for your rescue. If the patrollers ruin their sticks getting to you, if people have to take time out of their day to find you or S&R have to be called because you're busted up somewhere, then you have to compensate those folks. Do the crime, do the time.

Unfortunately, this is not the case. We (patrollers) are responsible for your safety/rescue no matter where you are as long as it's on mountain property. Get into an accident backing out of your spot in the parking lot, we're responsible. Get into a fight in the lodge, we're responsible. Crack your head open on a closed trail, yep, we're responsible.



I can tell you, in my experience, most mountains will do all they can (legally) do to open as many trails as possible. I was skiing around like a mad man this past weekend trying to get trails open because we'd blown enough snow to open a few other trails. Sometimes it's not so much the trails not having enough base, rather, it's a case of the mountain not having the man/woman power to open more trails. It's not as easy to open a trail as many of you seem to think it is. There's more to it than just skiing it and claiming it to be open. All obstacles less than 6' tall must be marked properly. With the amount of snow guns out there now, that can take a while.

Believe me, we're all doing everything we can to get more trails open as quickly as possible.

 

[Breeze]

This is an interesting thread.

Fascinating that folks want to ski on "closed" trails just because the redcoats are out there.

The redcoats aren't out there because they WANT to be skiing concrete, mashed, chopped, ice, manmade wet whalebacks or to find out whether they have a shot at getting to an incident and successfully bringing down the trauma sled. They are skiing it because they HAVE to KNOW what is there and whether its "good to go".

"Looks like pow" well yeah, It CAN LOOK like Pow, but will it SKI like pow?

I know, I know..... "Ski it if you can" has an incredible effect on adrenaline,, and " IF THEY CAN, SO CAN I" is another power surge. Some folks will always go there.

If you get stuck, you'll have to walk your own a$$ out and down. No Whine.

If you get caught and penalized, No Whine. Ducked the rope with full understanding.

If you get hurt and need Patrol services, you'd best be prepared for the wait and the questions and perhaps a bigger bill than your lift ticket/pass for rescue. Not to mention that if it takes a half-hour for Ski Patrol to find you, another half hour for them to get you down to base, your golden hour in trauma is used up before you ever see the ambulance or the ER trauma doc.

OTOH, if you go OB and no one skis with you or keeps track of you, the only trace of you might be the ski bag you left in the lodge, which will simply go to lost and found, and be a clue that you were there at some point and never came out.

So many people leave/forget so much stuff. Lost and found isn't the best indicator that there might be someone out there in trouble.

Last year a tour bus arrived at Wildcat, discharged 39 passengers, and only 38 presented for the return trip. The missing person's effects were located, but the bus left "ON Schedule" for the 38 paid passengers, and without passenger #39.

That left Wildcat on the hook for the missing person and forced Wildcat to call State Police, who had the nod to call Mike an Diane Pelchat and cascade the Androscoggin Valley Search and Rescue. Also necessary to call Joe Gill with the National Forest Service and report the incident.

The OB skier was picked up by a groomer sometime after 7 pm near the pumphouse closest to the Thompson Brook trailhead, where there was a prominent rope and a trail closed sign.

All was well in health for the OB skier. He had all his toes and fingers, but he took a hit for overnite accomodations and a full fare ride for bus service No Conway to Boston.

Wildcat had to pay for Ski patrol and guest services staff to remain on site and on payroll for State Police depostion because this particular person decided to ski OB.


He rescued himself, but left a pair of Rossi 205's somewhere in Thompson Brook. Phone contact is now..... he wants his Rossies back. Send Ski Patrol in there to snag the skiis he abandoned when he was in over his head, after ducking the rope.

I'm all for customer service, but this one has " chutzpah" written all over it.

If you want to ski closed trails , or follow redcoats, thats up to you

take your risks,

Breeze

 

[salida]

Pelchat prolly went in for the booty left in Thompson brook

 

[Rick Kane]

poached upper and lower parkway a few times during saturday, it made the all night drive from philly worth it

 

[eatskisleep]

This is an interesting thread.

Fascinating that folks want to ski on "closed" trails just because the redcoats are out there.

The redcoats aren't out there because they WANT to be skiing concrete, mashed, chopped, ice, manmade wet whalebacks or to find out whether they have a shot at getting to an incident and successfully bringing down the trauma sled. They are skiing it because they HAVE to KNOW what is there and whether its "good to go".

"Looks like pow" well yeah, It CAN LOOK like Pow, but will it SKI like pow?

I know, I know..... "Ski it if you can" has an incredible effect on adrenaline,, and " IF THEY CAN, SO CAN I" is another power surge. Some folks will always go there.

If you get stuck, you'll have to walk your own a$$ out and down. No Whine.

If you get caught and penalized, No Whine. Ducked the rope with full understanding.

If you get hurt and need Patrol services, you'd best be prepared for the wait and the questions and perhaps a bigger bill than your lift ticket/pass for rescue. Not to mention that if it takes a half-hour for Ski Patrol to find you, another half hour for them to get you down to base, your golden hour in trauma is used up before you ever see the ambulance or the ER trauma doc.

OTOH, if you go OB and no one skis with you or keeps track of you, the only trace of you might be the ski bag you left in the lodge, which will simply go to lost and found, and be a clue that you were there at some point and never came out.

So many people leave/forget so much stuff. Lost and found isn't the best indicator that there might be someone out there in trouble.

Last year a tour bus arrived at Wildcat, discharged 39 passengers, and only 38 presented for the return trip. The missing person's effects were located, but the bus left "ON Schedule" for the 38 paid passengers, and without passenger #39.

That left Wildcat on the hook for the missing person and forced Wildcat to call State Police, who had the nod to call Mike an Diane Pelchat and cascade the Androscoggin Valley Search and Rescue. Also necessary to call Joe Gill with the National Forest Service and report the incident.

The OB skier was picked up by a groomer sometime after 7 pm near the pumphouse closest to the Thompson Brook trailhead, where there was a prominent rope and a trail closed sign.

All was well in health for the OB skier. He had all his toes and fingers, but he took a hit for overnite accomodations and a full fare ride for bus service No Conway to Boston.

Wildcat had to pay for Ski patrol and guest services staff to remain on site and on payroll for State Police depostion because this particular person decided to ski OB.


He rescued himself, but left a pair of Rossi 205's somewhere in Thompson Brook. Phone contact is now..... he wants his Rossies back. Send Ski Patrol in there to snag the skiis he abandoned when he was in over his head, after ducking the rope.

I'm all for customer service, but this one has " chutzpah" written all over it.

If you want to ski closed trails , or follow redcoats, thats up to you

take your risks,

Breeze

So he ducked the ropes to ski The Brook Now that is just stupidity. Don't ski the Baccountry unless conditions are great. Hard to believe he wants his skis back! He should be thanking the work @ The Cat he is alive.
Does The Cat pull passes if you are caught skiing a closed trail? I was wondering this becasue it is National or State forest land mainly?
Thanks for answering the question Breeze!

 

[catskills]

I know, but I didn't want to go off completely on the OB issue...3/4 of the folks I run into OB are patrollers.

Emoloyees of a ski area such as Patrollers skiing/riding on closed trails with their patrol jackets on is just plain wrong unless they have management authorizaton. Many ski area managers fire their employees (patrollers and instructors) if they are caught on a closed trail on their mountain.

Patrollers have a job to do and we all need to show them respect. If a patroller catches you skiing a closed trail be nice to them, after all they are just doing their job.

I have seen some real bad injuries due to folks skiing/riding just a few feet off beyond the trail boundary. Unfortunatly many of these injuries will be with them for the rest of their life.

Remember that Warren Miller film with the guy that jumped the school bus. You might think wow I want to do that. What you didn't see was the guy landing on the gard rail. I understand that guy hasn't skied since his 3 seconds of fame video shot.

Its your body be nice to it so the older you may get to enjoy it.

 

[sledhaulingmedic]

Pelchat prolly went in for the booty left in Thompson brook

I kinda doubt it. If Mike needs a new pair of skis, I'll give him a pair way better than what tha moron left in T Brook.

Don't be slaggin' Mike, even in jest. Always glad to know he's up top o'the rockpile.

 

[salida]

Just kidding around, someone better have went in after the skis, the spring time booty missions are always sweet.

 

[skibum1321]

Do you know for sure they were skiing somewhere they weren't supposed to without a reason (e.g. looking for some dummy who may have skied down there)?

Actually, yes I do know that they were there for their own skiing pleasure. I talked to the patrollers right before they droppped in.

A trail doesn't have to be, "marked," to be able to ski it. However, typically, if a trail (here in the East) is not marked it usually means it's out of bounds.

That's not necessarily true. Many ski areas have an open boundary policy - meaning that you can ski anywhere, not just marked trails. For example, at MRG, they actually maintain unmarked woods in the summer.

Maybe you should speak for your own mountain and not lay down such generalized statements that don't hold true for all mountains.

 

[GadgetRick]

my opinion stands that if patrol find poaching to be a problem, i think they would serve their cause best by opening questionable trails that way skiers get to better understand that a rope really does mean it ain't worth it.

If we could we would. The first time someone skis a trail like this and gets hurt, there's a huge lawsuit and the fun is over. This is why we're so careful on what we open and what we close.

I patrol at Belleayre Mountain in NY I cannot comment on all mountains as to how they open/close trails but I've got to believe it's basically the same as my mountain. The patrol has to do what the mountain tells us to do (within reason) and the mountains want more trails open. Looks better on the conditions report.

The redcoats aren't out there because they WANT to be skiing concrete, mashed, chopped, ice, manmade wet whalebacks or to find out whether they have a shot at getting to an incident and successfully bringing down the trauma sled. They are skiing it because they HAVE to KNOW what is there and whether its "good to go".

Couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you.

Not to mention that if it takes a half-hour for Ski Patrol to find you, another half hour for them to get you down to base, your golden hour in trauma is used up before you ever see the ambulance or the ER trauma doc.

Again, couldn't have said it better myself.

Many ski area managers fire their employees (patrollers and instructors) if they are caught on a closed trail on their mountain.

I've seen it happen. Enough said on this one.

That's not necessarily true. Many ski areas have an open boundary policy - meaning that you can ski anywhere, not just marked trails. For example, at MRG, they actually maintain unmarked woods in the summer.

Ok, then you're not necessarily skiing out of bounds then are you? Out of bounds means, you aren't supposed to ski there. Open boundaries means, ski where you want (essentially).

Maybe you should speak for your own mountain and not lay down such generalized statements that don't hold true for all mountains.

My statements hold true for any mountain. If it's out of bounds or not an area you're supposed to ski in, don't ski there. Got nothing to do with the mountain I patrol vs. the mountain you ski on. Different mountain, different rules. If you're breaking the rules at the mountain you ski, shame on you. If you're not breaking the rules then what, exactly, are you arguing about?


The bottom line is if someone is trying to justify skiing a areas which aren't supposed to be skied (out of bounds or whatever you want to call it) then you'll get no sympathy from many people but especially patrollers. Do I understand why people want to? Of course, I'm human, I like pow pow like the next person but, if you aren't supposed to be there, someone has a reason for it. You may not agree with it but you don't have to agree with it. Just abide by the rules. If you break the rules don't whine about getting your ticket clipped and/or your pass pulled. If you're doing 90mph in a 55mph highway and you get bagged for speeding you're not getting sympathy there, either. Again, you don't make the rules, the mountain does.

Look at it this way. If you're not a smoker and you don't want someone smoking in your house you tell people not to smoke there. If someone decides to smoke there you can throw them out. Should they be able to smoke in your house? It doesn't really matter. It's your house, you make the rules, others should respect it. Please respect the mountain's rules. If you're skiing in areas you're not supposed to you're just plain WRONG...PERIOD.

 

[trailertrash]

nice perspective

GadgetRick, thanks for adding your perspective from someone who actually deals with this. it seems there are people that know more than you and the mtn operators and can make their own decisions about open trails. its all about them remember.

 

[dmc]

I patrol at Belleayre Mountain in NY I cannot comment on all mountains as to how they open/close trails but I've got to believe it's basically the same as my mountain. The patrol has to do what the mountain tells us to do (within reason) and the mountains want more trails open. Looks better on the conditions report.

So I guess the popular - Dropping off the back of Belleayre onto the old Highmount is illegal...

Have you done it? i know lots that do...

 

[skibum1321]

I guess I misinterpreted what you were trying to say about unmarked trails. It sounded like you were saying that if an area (in this case the woods) isn't marked then it shouldn't be skied. With open boundary policies, these woods aren't marked, maintained or patrolled but are still skiable.

If you go beyond the ski area boundary, that should technically be out of their jurisdiction, right? For example, the Church, Big Jay, the Chin, etc.

 

[dmc]

If you're skiing in areas you're not supposed to you're just plain WRONG...PERIOD.

I do lots of things that are wrong.. :evil:

 

[JimG.]

This is the part that gets me...OK, go ahead and close a trail, but don't then make it a private playground for patrollers only and then yell at others who decide to join the fun. Classic "do as I say, not as I do" stuff.

I agree...as long as they were truly just skiing a trail for the fun of it. Sometimes we will get a report of someone being down on a trail and we've got to go check that trail. I don't know anything about the incidents you're talking about so I can't comment specifically about them. Just know there may have been a reason for them being there you don't know about. Or, they could have just been breaking the rules, which I do not agree with either.

Rick, I respect what you guys do...I've even considered becoming a patroller. So I'm not talking about situations where 2 patrollers go down a closed trail to see if it's openable, decide it's not, and then go on their way to another area. I'm talking about situations where trails turn into private playgrounds for patrollers but nobody else. That's awfully annoying to the paying customer, to see a trail closed because of snowmaking on it but then seeing 10 snow covered patrollers skiing it for 3 hours, telling folks they're "testing it out". That's just BS.