Trail Ratings

[highpeaksdrifter]

We all know that ski areas rate their trails, Black, Blue and Green relative to other trails on that particular mountain. What trails do you think have the wrong rating for their mountain and why do you think so? Once posted others who have skied the trail can tell you if they think you or the mountain got it right.

Upper Empire at Whiteface – At WF only the Slides and the Cloudsplitter glades are rated double black. Upper Empire is rated Black and I think it should be a double. It is very narrow, steep; turns in the trail, natural snow, can’t be groomed and bumped up. It is much more difficult then anything else at WF that is also rated black.

Hellgate at Hunter – Hunter has great expert terrain. Back in the day when Hellgate was one of the original trails at Hunter it was a legit black for that mountain. With the addition of more and better expert trails, plus the fact that they have reconfigured their East facing summit trails a couple of times there is no way, IMO, that Hellgate is black, it should be blue. It’s black rating is more historic then actual. It just doesn’t have the characteristics of the other black trails at Hunter. With a name like Hellgate the rating won’t be changing anytime soon.

So where am I right and where am I wrong?

 

[millerm277]

I will disagree on hellgate...when it is groomed flat, yes...it's a blue. However, when bumps are allowed to form, it is a definite black. Same with when it's icy...it is pretty treacherous if you are a intermediate skier. Compare Hellgate to Belt Pkwy...and you see why it is still a black.


I'll say....

A lot of the Double Blacks in the PA area. Especially Razor's Edge at Blue Mountain...that trail, is a diamond for the first bit, and then a blue for the rest of the way.

 

[2knees]

Escapade at killington. Rated double black. Not a chance. a mild black at best and its almost always bumped. actually any of the canyon runs could fall into this category but none more so then escapade.

 

[C2H5OH]

...Upper Empire is rated Black and I think it should be a double. It is very narrow, steep; turns in the trail, natural snow, can’t be groomed and bumped up. It is much more difficult then anything else at WF that is also rated black.

U.Empire is one trail (not counting slides & glades) which I never skied. From Approach it looks exactly as you describe. Speaking of Approach - in reality it is a Blue trail, but since all ways down go thru Black trails, it's marked as Black itself - example of an "invalid" rating.

 

[millerm277]

Escapade at killington. Rated double black. Not a chance. a mild black at best and its almost always bumped. actually any of the canyon runs could fall into this category but none more so then escapade.

I agree with that....

Personally, I think only Downdraft and Royal Flush really deserve the double diamond ratings.

Cascade and Double Dipper maybe...only because it does take a double black skier to do them when they are bumped and icy.

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

U.Empire is one trail (not counting slides & glades) which I never skied. From Approach it looks exactly as you describe. Speaking of Approach - in reality it is a Blue trail, but since all ways down go thru Black trails, it's marked as Black itself - example of an "invalid" rating.

Good point C2H, but they have to rate it Black for the exact reason you point out. If they rated it a blue, and unsuspecting intermediates went down it, there would be disasterous results. Approach is really just a feeder trail for Northway, Empire, Mackenzie, Wildernwss, Mountain Run, Parkway and Thurway, all legit blacks.

 

[SnowRider]

i have to say one thing. Jay peak seems very good about not running up trail counts by upper and lower. they just put a little symbol change to signify difficulty changes. they also dont rate double blacks...anyone know why?

Sunapee seems to have one major trail that is unlikely a dubble black. Like goosbumps is not nearly a double black. the only reason they could rate it that is because it is the hardest non gladed run they have.

 

[drewfidelic]

At Hunter, if Hellgate was rated blue, it would end up like the Belt Parkway, but worse...
________
Mercedes-benz w113 history

 

[TreeLine]

A lot of the Double Blacks in the PA area. Especially Razor's Edge at Blue Mountain...that trail, is a diamond for the first bit, and then a blue for the rest of the way.[/QUOTE]

I agree totally with you, especially since its always groomed flat, but its the best trail on the mtn - and because its double black it keeps all the gapers off it - a hard thing to do in the pocoMos.

 

[ajl50]

HPD - I would say that at WF Parkway and Thruway should both be blue. I forget which is black and which is blue but one is. I think this was because they used to have a terrain park on one of the trails but eve still - those trails are solid blue carvers.

I would also say that lower cloudspin isn't a blue. That's a black trail. I've seen a lot of people walking back from that trail because they thought since it was blue that it was comparable to excel.

 

[riverc0il]

i have to say one thing. Jay peak seems very good about not running up trail counts by upper and lower. they just put a little symbol change to signify difficulty changes. they also dont rate double blacks...anyone know why?

i completely disagree. the willard to me is lower derrick. lower haynes... is called mont l'entrepide, upper/lower river quai, upper/lower exhibition, the separation of beaver pond and beyond, upper/lower can am, upper/lower milk run, and upper/lower goat? jay has quite extensively separated single trails into upper and lower. amazingly, they used restraint with green mountain boys, The Jet and U.N. which DO have two different difficulty rating symbols on the map instead of a name change for upper/lower, which is the way it ought to be. i also think the retention of st. george's prayer is kinda silly since it can only be accessed via the face chutes. generally, i think jay's trail numbers are inflated due to some of the upper/lower issues they have and i dare say they are one of the bigger offenders, especially since they are so inconsistent when it comes to switching between using two different ratings for the same trail name vs. adding another trail name or using upper/lower.

 

[skiadikt]

Escapade at killington. Rated double black. Not a chance. a mild black at best and its almost always bumped. actually any of the canyon runs could fall into this category but none more so then escapade.

only reason escapade is rated double black is because it empties into lower cascade, which k rates as double black. at best relative to k, escapade is a blue or single black (and then only because it rarely gets groomed) but to put a blue or black symbol at the top of the trail would be misleading since it does empty out into a 'double black'. same reason traverses like nivis walk, launch pad, space walk & ol express are rated single or double black-not because of the difficulty of the trails themselves but because of the rating of the trails they dump you out onto.

you can argue about some of the canyon trails being single or double black, but i'd say lower cascade, dipper, downdraft and maybe east fall relative to killington-particularly in their usual icey state can be called double black.

but face it folks, all these ratings are relative. out west i've skied double blue trails that were steeper than any of these. out west at squaw or jackson hole for example, outer limits would only be double blue or single black at best.

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

HPD - I would say that at WF Parkway and Thruway should both be blue. I forget which is black and which is blue but one is. I think this was because they used to have a terrain park on one of the trails but eve still - those trails are solid blue carvers.

I would also say that lower cloudspin isn't a blue. That's a black trail. I've seen a lot of people walking back from that trail because they thought since it was blue that it was comparable to excel.

Upper Parkway and Upper Thruway both have sections that are on par in steepness with Mt. Run and Wilderness. They don't stay that steep all the way though and Lower on both have blue terrain, but as you point out, Thruway has the terrain park on lower, so it gets the black.

Lower CS when bumped up should be black for sure, when groomed it is a steeper blue. That trail on any other mountain, IMO, would be black, but it's all relative.

 

[Brettski]

The only double black (for where I've skiied) should be the face chutes at Jay.

 

[shwilly]

I am skeptical of most "double black" groomers. On Barker Mountain at Sunday River, Right Stuff is black and Top Gun is double black, but those trails are very similar.

At Sugarloaf:
Upper Double Bitter and Binder's black ratings seem suspect to me. A couple weeks ago a friend who's getting back into skiing had a good time on Upper Double Bitter, then felt completely out of her league on "blue" King's Landing.

Sugarloaf has several places where there's a blue trail beside a black trail and they have very similar pitch and contours.
e.g.
King's Landing (blue) and Hayburner (black)
Sluice (blue) and Spillway (black)

Also, they might as well just designate Ramdown black instead of blue to emphasize that low intermediates shouldn't take the King Pine chair at all. Several times I've seen people get to the top, realize they're out of their league, then have a bad time getting down.

I guess these Sugarloaf criticisms boil down to there being a wide range of "blues." Good skiers will have no problem with any of these trails, but there isn't much to indicate to a low intermediate that they'll like Tote Road and Scoot a lot more than King's Landing or Sluice.

 

[JimG.]

I will disagree on hellgate...when it is groomed flat, yes...it's a blue. However, when bumps are allowed to form, it is a definite black. Same with when it's icy...it is pretty treacherous if you are a intermediate skier. Compare Hellgate to Belt Pkwy...and you see why it is still a black.

Skip and I discussed this very point when we skiied Hunter together back in December. I agree with you, and when the trail is icy with widely spaced bumps with flat light at 3pm with a bunch of gapers sprawled everywhere, it surely is a black.

But Jimmy Heuga at Hunter, while it does have a steep pitch at the top, the steep part can be skiied around. This trail is not a black and should be a blue.

 

[MarkC]

But Jimmy Heuga at Hunter, while it does have a steep pitch at the top, the steep part can be skiied around. This trail is not a black and should be a blue.

I always wondered about Heuga. Is there any reason for the black rating or was it a close call and done for marketing reasons to say that you have a certain % of different terrain types?

 

[Greg]

Hellgate at Hunter – Hunter has great expert terrain. Back in the day when Hellgate was one of the original trails at Hunter it was a legit black for that mountain. With the addition of more and better expert trails, plus the fact that they have reconfigured their East facing summit trails a couple of times there is no way, IMO, that Hellgate is black, it should be blue. It’s black rating is more historic then actual. It just doesn’t have the characteristics of the other black trails at Hunter. With a name like Hellgate the rating won’t be changing anytime soon.

So where am I right and where am I wrong?

At Hunter, if Hellgate was rated blue, it would end up like the Belt Parkway, but worse...

Hellgate is no less difficult in terms of pitch than Minya or East Side which both follow a similar layout. In fact I think East Side is quite a bit flatter. Anyway, the Hellgate turn with bumps is legit black diamond. Skier's right on Hellgate before the turn is definitely blue-box, but the drop down to Upper X-over is steeper; kinda falls on the black/blue line. I agree it's best to leave Hellgate designated black. It gets enough traffic as it is.

I am skeptical of most "double black" groomers.

Agreed. Jericho at Jiminy is a groomed double black but actually is normally easier to ski that its neighbor Whitetail (a single) which tends to get slick and fast. There's one steep section at the bottom of Jericho which is legit double-black, groomed or not, but it's so short that it's navigable by all but the most gapiest of gapers.

Temptor at Sundown was rated double black for a while. Not even close. As I understand it, the reason was the terrain park was once there.

Exterminator at Mount Ellen is rated double-black. That's questionable if the trail rating comparison is resort-wide. No way is Exterminator as equally challenging as say the Castlerock Liftline. Not even close. I guess as compared to other trails at Ellen, it could qualify, but FIS certainly looks more double black that Exterm. Single black for that one.

Twilight Zone at Magic. Great trail, but not Redline status or even Goniff status. Should be a single. Same for Slide of Hans.

 

[Paul]

Temptor at Sundown was rated double black for a while. Not even close. As I understand it, the reason was the terrain park was once there.

I was wondering about that, the sign at the trailhead still has the double diamonds. Since my daughter skiied down it a few times, she insists that she is a "Double Black Diamond Skiier"

Yes, that was capitalized on purpose.

 

[goldsbar]

Hellgate out West with reliable good snow is a blue. In the Catskills with the usual scraped conditions it's definetely a black. Just look at the usual carnage at the top. Now if you really think Claire's and K27 (or whatever - not picking on Hunter) are double blacks...

No trail without trees, drops, and/or serious steepness should be a double diamond. Anthing that can be groomed is at most a black. So yes, I'd remove that rating from most of the trails in the East that have it.