Trail Ratings

[highpeaksdrifter]

Agreed. Jericho at Jiminy is a groomed double black but actually is normally easier to ski that its neighbor Whitetail (a single) which tends to get slick and fast. There's one steep section at the bottom of Jericho which is legit double-black, groomed or not, but it's so short that it's navigable by all but the most gapiest of gapers.

If Jiminy needs to list a double black trail it should be Cutter. It's their designated bump trail and has a fairly steep constantent pitch to it.

Jericho. IMO, is their most fun frontside bowling alley, but it should be black.

 

[JimG.]

I always wondered about Heuga. Is there any reason for the black rating or was it a close call and done for marketing reasons to say that you have a certain % of different terrain types?

I think it's the genuinely steep pitch on the upper left side of the trail. It's not any big deal, but to an intermediate it is intimidating because it just kind of drops off there. And if you fall you wind up right in the middle of the trail where all the other skiers are, or worse you skid across into the fence.

 

[2knees]

only reason escapade is rated double black is because it empties into lower cascade, which k rates as double black. at best relative to k, escapade is a blue or single black (and then only because it rarely gets groomed) but to put a blue or black symbol at the top of the trail would be misleading since it does empty out into a 'double black'. same reason traverses like nivis walk, launch pad, space walk & ol express are rated single or double black-not because of the difficulty of the trails themselves but because of the rating of the trails they dump you out onto.

you can argue about some of the canyon trails being single or double black, but i'd say lower cascade, dipper, downdraft and maybe east fall relative to killington-particularly in their usual icey state can be called double black.

but face it folks, all these ratings are relative. out west i've skied double blue trails that were steeper than any of these. out west at squaw or jackson hole for example, outer limits would only be double blue or single black at best.

good point about escapade and what it dumps into. I didnt take that into consideration. However i question the ratings of cascade, double dipper and downdraft only in relation to the trails at killington i think do deserve the double rating. Lower Ovation, vertigo headwall, devils fiddle and possibly lower conclusion. that would about cover it in my opinion since they groom the snot out of half of outer limits now. I'm sure there are marked tree runs that deserve the ratings they have, i just havent skied most of them.

and yes, its all relative to the area and to the fact that nothing here really compares to whats out west. Kirkwood has runs marked blue and black that would easily qualify as double blacks here.

 

[Greg]

Now if you really think Claire's and K27 (or whatever - not picking on Hunter) are double blacks...

No trail without trees, drops, and/or serious steepness should be a double diamond. Anthing that can be groomed is at most a black. So yes, I'd remove that rating from most of the trails in the East that have it.

Disagreed. Whether or not a trail can be groomed shouldn't determine a double black status. It's whether or not it is consistently groomed. K27 with big ole bumps? Double black for sure. Now, keep in mind a resort might have to groom a double black from time to time for various reasons, but if a steep pitch is allowed to bump up and is normally left ungroomed, double black is reasonable. There are also plenty of trails in the East that you can't run a cat up. Finally, comparing East and West terrain is like trying to compare trail ratings between a SNE and a NNE ski area. I've never skied out West, but I would imagine there are several double black trails out there that when this surface is good with plenty of powder are much easier to ski than some icey steep pitches here in the East.

 

[MarkC]

Disagreed. Whether or not a trail can be groomed shouldn't determine a double black status. It's whether or not it is consistently groomed. K27 with big ole bumps? Double black for sure. Now, keep in mind a resort might have to groom a double black from time to time for various reasons, but if a steep pitch is allowed to bump up and is normally left ungroomed, double black is reasonable. .

Excellent point. Most of the double black trails at Belleayre are designated double black for that reason.

 

[from_the_NEK]

Also, they might as well just designate Ramdown black instead of blue to emphasize that low intermediates shouldn't take the King Pine chair at all. Several times I've seen people get to the top, realize they're out of their league, then have a bad time getting down.

Burke did something like this with Deer Run (aka toll road) a few years back. They changed it from a Green to a Blue, thereby elimanating the only Green trail on the upper mtn. This was actually a very wise change since this trail meanders back and forth across a lot of other trails and was creating a lot of dangerous situations where beginner skiers (not knowing any better) would pop out on to Big Dipper without first looking uphill :-o . Big/Upper Dipper is a trail where people are typically skiing very fast. It was actually a very wise move in my opinion.
On the Upper/Big Dipper note... Burke is guilty of changing a few trail names part way down without changing ratings.
Examples:
Upper Dipper/Big Dipper (Both Blue)*
Upper/Lower Willoughby (Both Blue)*

* Note - these sets of trails have sections that would be considered Black Diamonds at many other mountains.

Acceptable Multi-name trails:
Upper Foxes Folly (Blue)/Foxes Folly (Double Black)*/Lower Foxes Folly (Blue)
Upper Warrens Way (Black)/Lower Warrens Way (Blue) definite pitch change in there
Upper Bear Den (Blue)/Lower Bear Den (Blue) These sections are separated by the Black Diamond "The Ledges" (aka Bear Den Ledges) which is steep and bumped.

* Note - pushing double rating but addition of lift towers to the narrow trail is probably the reason.

 

[JimG.]

Disagreed. Whether or not a trail can be groomed shouldn't determine a double black status. It's whether or not it is consistently groomed. K27 with big ole bumps? Double black for sure. Now, keep in mind a resort might have to groom a double black from time to time for various reasons, but if a steep pitch is allowed to bump up and is normally left ungroomed, double black is reasonable. There are also plenty of trails in the East that you can't run a cat up. Finally, comparing East and West terrain is like trying to compare trail ratings between a SNE and a NNE ski area. I've never skied out West, but I would imagine there are several double black trails out there that when this surface is good with plenty of powder are much easier to ski than some icey steep pitches here in the East.

I've been skiing Hunter for 25 years. In that time, lower K27 has been groomed exactly once to test out the winch cat they bought that season.

That said, I'm happy calling any TRAIL that is for experts a single black. Keep it consistent though. If I were to do that, I would not groom single blacks anymore. Grooming is for intermediate terrain and below.

I would not be popular amongst most skiers.

 

[Greg]

Grooming is for intermediate terrain and below.

Word!

I would not be popular amongst most skiers.

Yeah - but we still love ya...

 

[2knees]

I've been skiing Hunter for 25 years. In that time, lower K27 has been groomed exactly once to test out the winch cat they bought that season.

That said, I'm happy calling any TRAIL that is for experts a single black. Keep it consistent though. If I were to do that, I would not groom single blacks anymore. Grooming is for intermediate terrain and below.

I would not be popular amongst most skiers.

It wasnt so long ago that almost all areas simply used the three ratings and left it at that. A big part of it is a marketing tool. Oooohhh, look at this area, they have "x" number of trails rated as double diamond. I've also seen places go way overboard. Jiminy maybe, not sure if they still do it but used to rate green, green/blue, blue, blue/black, black and double black.

 

[Greg]

Jiminy maybe, not sure if they still do it but used to rate green, green/blue, blue, blue/black, black and double black.

Yeah, they still do that. I believe the mixed ratings are used for trails that are say very steep at the top and then flatten way out at the bottom. Not that I agree with the approach, but I understand the rationale.

 

[awf170]

IThat said, I'm happy calling any TRAIL that is for experts a single black. Keep it consistent though. If I were to do that, I would not groom single blacks anymore. Grooming is for intermediate terrain and below.

Greatest post ever! Not that it could ever happen, but wouldn't that be so awesome. Actually I would make a slight change, but still never groom blacks.

Greens- Always groomed. Same as now.
Blues- Always groomed. Same as now.
Double Blue- Always groomed. Just steeper than normal blues. (Jet at Jay Peak, Profile at Cannon, etc.) Anything that is steeper than a blue but groomed.
Blacks- Never groomed. About as steep as a single blue.
Double Black- Never groomed. As steep or steeper than double blues. As steep or steeper than ASC/Killington Double blacks.

Ehh???

Make senses to me because IMO a steep groomer like Jet is still easier than a flatter ungroomed/moguled trail like Upper Milk Run.

Edit: Here is my idea at Wildcat. Dotted lines = double. (this is what happens when I can't go skiing)

 

[Justin10]

To me it doesn't really matter if a trail is a blue, black, double black or whatever. If I like the trail, i'll do it, and if I dont, I wont. That being said, I look for mountains to have consistancy when they rate their trails so although their blues might be a bit steeper than another mountains blues, you still know what to expect, as far as pitch, when you go down it.

Also, I know Cannon does not have any double blacks, but if there was one that could be one, I would think it would have to be the Tramline trail. Its never groomed, quite steep, and its all natural. It has large rocks and isn't very wide either. Never skiied the Kinsman Glade, so no idea on that one.

 

[millerm277]

Remember though, that the Rating of a trail is supposed to be in relation to the other trails at that specific area, not to trails at another area.

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

Jiminy maybe, not sure if they still do it but used to rate green, green/blue, blue, blue/black, black and double black.

I like that system, not all greens, blues and blacks are greated equal. Example: Black Diamond in a Blue Square. This would be a perfect designation for L. Cloudspin at WF and Hellgate at Hunter

To me it doesn't really matter if a trail is a blue, black, double black or whatever. If I like the trail, i'll do it, and if I dont, I wont.

That's find if you know the whole mountain, but if you don't trail ratings are very helpful.

 

[Newpylong]

good point about escapade and what it dumps into. I didnt take that into consideration. However i question the ratings of cascade, double dipper and downdraft only in relation to the trails at killington i think do deserve the double rating. Lower Ovation, vertigo headwall, devils fiddle and possibly lower conclusion. that would about cover it in my opinion since they groom the snot out of half of outer limits now. I'm sure there are marked tree runs that deserve the ratings they have, i just havent skied most of them.

and yes, its all relative to the area and to the fact that nothing here really compares to whats out west. Kirkwood has runs marked blue and black that would easily qualify as double blacks here.

I'm with ya 2Knees. I would rate Devil's Fiddle, Upper Vertigo, Needle's Eye Liftline, Lower Ovation, and lower Conclusion as double blacks only. I would return Cascade and Downdraft to single black, as well as Double Dipper. Outer Limits, I dunno, maybe single black too.

 

[JPTracker]

i completely disagree. the willard to me is lower derrick. lower haynes... is called mont l'entrepide, upper/lower river quai, upper/lower exhibition, the separation of beaver pond and beyond, upper/lower can am, upper/lower milk run, and upper/lower goat? jay has quite extensively separated single trails into upper and lower. amazingly, they used restraint with green mountain boys, The Jet and U.N. which DO have two different difficulty rating symbols on the map instead of a name change for upper/lower, which is the way it ought to be. i also think the retention of st. george's prayer is kinda silly since it can only be accessed via the face chutes. generally, i think jay's trail numbers are inflated due to some of the upper/lower issues they have and i dare say they are one of the bigger offenders, especially since they are so inconsistent when it comes to switching between using two different ratings for the same trail name vs. adding another trail name or using upper/lower.

The willard and mont l'entrepide trails existed before derrick & haynes did thats why they are named different. For the 2000 - 2001 season Jays trail count jumped from 66 to 74 trails many of which are the upper & lower trails you mentioned.

A newer trend is the desire to be able to claim 100% open. Last year the added the Grammy Jay trail yet there trail count remained the same. This is because the removed Sis Boom Bah trail from the map because it was never open. Also several trails would never be split because sections of these trails are almost never open or frequently closed. Example is Northwest Passage. The upper and lower sections are ussally open but the middle section is rarely skiable and is ussally closed. The bottom section of Northway has no snowmaking and gets skied off quickly and is closed often.

 

[kingslug]

Belleayre: Dot Nebel is rated a double. That thing is bluer than the sky. I think they did it for some kind of political reason to pay tribute to her. the tops of some of their trails are definitely doubles when huge icy moguls form though.
As far as groomed double blacks go, you have to ski Squaw valley to truly appreciate how steep some things can become. Just try the Granite Chief area.

 

[goldsbar]

Thinking back on my learning curve, I found a steep trial with bumps - not talking competition style - like K27 much easier to get down than the same trail all iced up. The bumps provided natural turning points. Different story when you try to ski something aggresively but if you're just trying to get down bumps can make life easier. Of course, that was before these super sidecut skis that can carve a turn on a dime.

Lower K27 with bumps is a black. That line in the woods next to/right before lower K27 is most certainly a double black! YMMV

 

[eatskisleep]

Good concept Austin. How's the foot?

 

[awf170]

Good concept Austin. How's the foot?

Orange, blistery, swollen, and suprisingly painless.