Trails: Groomers vs Natural

[Snowlover]

So do we all wish that. I think snowy Ridge averages more like 400 plus that what Syracuse NY gets from lake effect. I love the lakes it is awesome when Catskills get some well one hill I most like not a resort.

I'm going to let you in a little secret...Vermont ski areas might....just might exaggerate the amount snow they get. shhhh Don't tell anyone. Our little secret lol Here's average snowfall from the buffalo national weather service lake effect region of ny You can clearly see the tug hill bulls eye of over 200 on there.

 

[billski]

The Vermont areas believe they can make those claims because the ski hills there are not in their market. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe based on living ans skiing in these areas that there is nothing much over 600', save for Bristol, which is south of Ra-cha-cha.

 

[Snowlover]

With snow like that, you could ski off a cliff and not get hurt!

Yeah no doubt. Here's the entire report of the record event from the nws

http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/cmb/extremes/ncec/mantague-ny-snowfall-24hour.pdf

 

[Snowlover]

The Vermont areas believe they can make those claims because the ski hills there are not in their market. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe based on living ans skiing in these areas that there is nothing much over 600', save for Bristol, which is south of Ra-cha-cha.

Ski hills that are on the tug hill are flat/lack vertical. It's a plateau. Snowmobile paradise as another poster stated. If they had vertical like vermont, then vermont/new england would have to adjust their snow totals because they'd look silly in comparison. Trust me Bill, if northern vt got in high 300's/nearly 400 inches then every single week they'd have a few powder days. Places out west that get that kind of snow get DUMPED on. Waist deep days every year. Not unusual to get 3 feet in a night.

 

[Cornhead]

With snow like that, you could ski off a cliff and not get hurt!

Yep, I didn't do it, but saw someone else do it, had to be a good 20' off the "ground". Threw in a rotation and a grind on a tree branch for good measure too. I don't know if he ever found the ski he lost when he didn't stick the landing however. I was impressed. Suffocating is a real danger if you landed upside down, not a bad thing to have to worry about.

 

[billski]

Yeah no doubt. Here's the entire report of the record event from the nws

http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/cmb/extremes/ncec/mantague-ny-snowfall-24hour.pdf

Now that is a report for a wet dream!
Other than that incredible cover photo, the following remarks are brilliant!

"At times visibility was limited to the distance from the driver to the front of the plow (about 10 feet). It was stated that at the height of the storm, snow was accumulating on the road at a rate of about one foot per hour. "
...
"The amount of new snow was deeper than the height of his deputies,"
...
"Sheriff’s Office deputies operate snowmobiles to get to houses to check on the safety of the occupants. Due to the light and fluffy nature of the snow, these vehicles could not be 18 operated until snow-grooming equipment was run..."
...

Brings new meaning to "snorkel skiing!"

 

[BenedictGomez]

You think "powder" stays for days in vermont? haha. Yeah maybe ice busted crud. The only place powder stays powder for DAYS after a storm is out west in the backcountry.

Midweek? Yes. And I'm talking about n.VT, not s.VT where the masses ski. I'm not talking about first tracks, I'm talking about nice powder conditions after a big dump. And even if the dump is on a weekend you can typically get a few days out of it.

You're obviously not their target demographic!

No, but it drives me nuts.
If they get (and I mean this literally) 1", they'll say "come ski the powder", it drives me batty.

 

[Cornhead]

Yeah no doubt. Here's the entire report of the record event from the nws

http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/cmb/extremes/ncec/mantague-ny-snowfall-24hour.pdf

Very cool, thanks for posting. Was a mere 67" in three days on opening day at Snow Ridge.

 

[Snowlover]

Due to the light and fluffy nature of the snow, these vehicles could not be 18 operated until snow-grooming equipment was run..."
...

That's another thing. Lake effect snow is BLOWER powder. It's the lightest/driest snow on earth. Can be as low as 30 to 1 ratio. Dryer than anything in Utah.

"Higher SLRs mean the snow is more powdery. Typical Utah SLRs are:

Heavy, wet Utah snow has an SLR around 7 (an SLR such as 7-to-1 is commonly referred to only by the numerator), with a water content of 14 percent.
Average Utah snow has an SLR of 14, or 7 percent water content. Steenburgh says "that is still pretty dry, especially when you compare it with coastal ski areas" with SLRs around 9 or 10.
Very dry, light snow has an SLR of 25. That's the same as 4 percent water content. Anything above SLR 25 is extremely dry, fluffy snow known as "wild snow."" from :http://unews.utah.edu/old/p/012710-4.html"

 

[ScottySkis]

That's another thing. Lake effect snow is BLOWER powder. It's the lightest/driest snow on earth. Can be as low as 30 to 1 ratio. Dryer than anything in Utah.

"Higher SLRs mean the snow is more powdery. Typical Utah SLRs are:

Heavy, wet Utah snow has an SLR around 7 (an SLR such as 7-to-1 is commonly referred to only by the numerator), with a water content of 14 percent.
Average Utah snow has an SLR of 14, or 7 percent water content. Steenburgh says "that is still pretty dry, especially when you compare it with coastal ski areas" with SLRs around 9 or 10.
Very dry, light snow has an SLR of 25. That's the same as 4 percent water content. Anything above SLR 25 is extremely dry, fluffy snow known as "wild snow."" from :http://unews.utah.edu/old/p/012710-4.html"

I skiied Platty and Utah and the powder after lake effect is very similar but nothing in ski world beats 100+ inches if powder in a week in SLC memories that last a life time.

 

[Snowlover]

I skiied Platty and Utah and the powder after lake effect is very similar but nothing in ski world beats 100+ inches if powder in a week in SLC memories that last a life time.

Yeah well I think the terrain is just "slightly" better in utah and they average double the amount of snow. Honestly, their both blower powder obviously. I was just making a point what high quality snow lake effect snow is.

 

[goldsbar]

You can't compare East and West. I've been to Jackson Hole in the rain followed by a super cold freeze. Light rain day was great as light rain (and only light rain) usually ensures a great soft surface. Next day was also great. The air and snow were so dry that the snow actually "dried out" even off piste. Could that ever happen here? Not that I've seen.

So...grooming is a necessary evil. That and the fact that the winds can be brutal and don't redistribute the plentiful snow. They blow it off the mountains or into the woods if you're lucky.

This is coming from a guy in his low 40's that loves even ice bumps (bumps should not be knee killers if you have good speed control; just feather the edges and don't try to be aggressive on ice bump days) and feels that many mountains over-groom.

 

[Huck_It_Baby]

You think "powder" stays for days in vermont? haha. Yeah maybe ice busted crud. The only place powder stays powder for DAYS after a storm is out west in the backcountry.

Your ignorance is my bliss.

 

[Snowlover]

You can't compare East and West. I've been to Jackson Hole in the rain followed by a super cold freeze. Light rain day was great as light rain (and only light rain) usually ensures a great soft surface. Next day was also great. The air and snow were so dry that the snow actually "dried out" even off piste. Could that ever happen here? Not that I've seen.

So...grooming is a necessary evil. That and the fact that the winds can be brutal and don't redistribute the plentiful snow. They blow it off the mountains or into the woods if you're lucky.
.

No. Grooming after an overnight storm is not a necessary evil at all. Some resorts don't do it all. Did you read the whole thread? The one's that do groom almost every trail after an overnight dump like okemo are doing it to please their customer base that doesn't know how to ski. At other places they don't ruin the perfect conditions.
As far as winds....places out west are above the treeline so I think they get their fair share of wind. lol Actually humidity levels are very high in the pacific northwest. Really depends where you are out west. Honestly, the reason you're not getting as many powder/packed powder days out east than out west is due to lower amounts of snow. It's kind of obvious. This is also why some of these mountains on the east coast are dealing with a consumer base that ski's once or twice a year and has never seen powder before. Sort of like a 12 year old boy having a beautiful naked woman in his bed.....he doesn't know what to do with it yet.

 

[MadMadWorld]

You're ignorance is my bliss.

Indeed. You can find it you just have to put in a little more effort!

 

[Snowlover]

You're ignorance is my bliss.

LOL....I'm not talking about super tight east coast tree skiing. Talking about trails.

 

[Huck_It_Baby]

LOL....I'm not talking about super tight east coast tree skiing. Talking about trails.

"LOL" indeed.

 

[MadMadWorld]

LOL....I'm not talking about super tight east coast tree skiing. Talking about trails.

Then yes you are correct.

 

[MadMadWorld]

No. Grooming after an overnight storm is not a necessary evil at all. Some resorts don't do it all. Did you read the whole thread? The one's that do groom almost every trail after an overnight dump like okemo are doing it to please their customer base that doesn't know how to ski. At other places they don't ruin the perfect conditions.
As far as winds....places out west are above the treeline so I think they get their fair share of wind. lol Actually humidity levels are very high in the pacific northwest. Really depends where you are out west. Honestly, the reason you're not getting as many powder/packed powder days out east than out west is due to lower amounts of snow. It's kind of obvious. This is also why some of these mountains on the east coast are dealing with a consumer base that ski's once or twice a year and has never seen powder before. Sort of like a 12 year old boy having a beautiful naked woman in his bed.....he doesn't know what to do with it yet.

So which mountains suit your style?

 

[Huck_It_Baby]

Then yes you are correct.

Disagree. I know several very wide open and NATURAL birch glades all around vermont that will retain powder for days and weeks so long as the temps stay low.

Obviously powder is going to get skied off trails by 10am on a powder day. Same at Western resorts.