VAIL SUCKS

[xlr8r]

Your post left me nostalgic for the days when the summit triple was the greatest of our concerns. One positive from vail this year: we forgot all about the triple.

• No Kachina all season.
• No yankee during the week.
• No yankee before january.
• Complete lack of snowmaking effort at wildcat.
• No singles line anywhere in NH.
• Whales left to drain for several weeks before being pushed out.
• Wildcat opening weeks after hunter.
• Bullet proof whales and snowguns in the middle of lynx opening day.

The no singles lines is a NH thing not a Vail thing. I think all NH mountains got guidance from the state in December that officially stopped the use of singles lines that paired up two singles on opposite sides of a quad. I noticed for the first couple weeks both Sunapee and Crotched were setting up singles lines to pair two singles up, but by January that stopped. Having also skied Cannon and Waterville which also have quads in NH, those mountains also do not have singles lines this season.

I agree on everything else. There is even more to add.
-One of double doubles has also not run at all this season.
-Abenaki was not run midweek until mid season
-Bobcat was not run until February
-Sunapee only having one run open after the huge December dump, when other trails could have opened on natural only.

The fact is that other ski areas planned for this season and succeeded even with the changes needed for Covid. For instance Vail has done almost nothing to encourage people to eat, drink, rest outside, instead of come in the lodge. Lots of mountains have increased deck or patio space, and created take out windows to allow people to buy food drinks without coming into the lodge, or have gotten food trucks to come to the mountain. Vail has done none of that. Vail is not letting its resorts be creative with finding solutions to this ever challenging season. They instead have done the bare minimum.

 

[Whitey]

Exactly. None of the local competition to Vails NH ski areas had the same issues. I'd argue it WAS financial mismanagement by Vail. They waited too long to hire people and I've read they offered lower wages than the competition. So, the available employees went elsewhere.

Really? "None" of the other areas had any of these same issues? Come on. If you just want to sh1t on VR, fine - have at it. But at least be honest in your hate. But I am telling you from what I saw, 1st hand, and you are responding with what "you read". And I didn't even include that the ink was still drying on the Peaks to VR sale/transition when all of this stuff hit. Who else in the northeast was having to deal with that kind of turmoil in addition to the all of CV19 stuff?

 

[Smellytele]

Really? "None" of the other areas had any of these same issues? Come on. If you just want to sh1t on VR, fine - have at it. But at least be honest in your hate. But I am telling you from what I saw, 1st hand, and you are responding with what "you read". And I didn't even include that the ink was still drying on the Peaks to VR sale/transition when all of this stuff hit. Who else in the northeast was having to deal with that kind of turmoil in addition to the all of CV19 stuff?

Now you are changing your argument because your first argument failed.
they failed but we’ll see if they fix the issue next season.

 

[snoseek]

Really? "None" of the other areas had any of these same issues? Come on. If you just want to sh1t on VR, fine - have at it. But at least be honest in your hate. But I am telling you from what I saw, 1st hand, and you are responding with what "you read". And I didn't even include that the ink was still drying on the Peaks to VR sale/transition when all of this stuff hit. Who else in the northeast was having to deal with that kind of turmoil in addition to the all of CV19 stuff?

I had an epic pass to ski wildcat and a cannon pass. The difference between how those two mountains ran this year was astounding. Because of that I had a much better experience at cannon therefore they get my pass money next year simple as that.

I will say the other epic mountains were doing better. I skied sunapee more than wildcat. Didn't see that one coming

 

[xlr8r]

Really? "None" of the other areas had any of these same issues? Come on. If you just want to sh1t on VR, fine - have at it. But at least be honest in your hate. But I am telling you from what I saw, 1st hand, and you are responding with what "you read". And I didn't even include that the ink was still drying on the Peaks to VR sale/transition when all of this stuff hit. Who else in the northeast was having to deal with that kind of turmoil in addition to the all of CV19 stuff?

Vail announced its acquistion of Peak in Summer 2019, and closed on Peak in Fall of 2019, about 6 months before Covid. Last season was the transition season from Peak to Vail. Before Covid, Vail should have been planning its integration of the Peak resorts into their systems and practices. The start of this season was a full 12 months after the closing of the sale, and there is no excuse for integration of Peak resorts to not be complete by then. The ink was dry long before this season started.

 

[Whitey]

Do you think the government checks (and unemployment payment) may have kept people from taking the minimum wage jobs resorts offered?

Possibly. But my best guess is they underestimated the mobility of the workforce and a lot of those people literally disappeared when they got furloughed. And most ski areas are not exactly based in areas of high population density anytway. If I were going by the stats - they are probably working in FL or TX now. A lot probably moved into construction/home related businesses as the building and real estate businesses are booming in these ski area towns & nearby areas.

VR did adjust their pay, you can argue "too little, too late". But what they seem to be focusing on now is "affordable housing". I think you will see a lot more hotels and rental properties converted to employee housing over the summer. I think this is smarter than just going after the pay issue. My belief is the #1 issue for people who take the lower paying jobs at a ski area is the lack of an affordable place to live that isn't 30-60 or more minutes away. Addressing that may be the smartest path to fixing the staffing problem.

 

[KustyTheKlown]

lol. you like the taste of rob katz. that's gross.

 

[dblskifanatic]

I find it interesting how high the expectations were related to Wildcat and Attitash. I was not surprised at all, It took Vail about a year+ to transition Stowe, Okemo, and Sunapee to their systems. There is a point to be made, the sale close on Peak Resorts 6 months prior to everything being halted. Then opening back up was tentative. From what I see, Mount Snow is like the Crown Jewel of that transaction and I think Hunter will get love too - why not - closer to the big markets. I think the northern mountains will have improved operations next season.

 

[deadheadskier]

Really? "None" of the other areas had any of these same issues? Come on. If you just want to sh1t on VR, fine - have at it. But at least be honest in your hate. But I am telling you from what I saw, 1st hand, and you are responding with what "you read". And I didn't even include that the ink was still drying on the Peaks to VR sale/transition when all of this stuff hit. Who else in the northeast was having to deal with that kind of turmoil in addition to the all of CV19 stuff?

I'll grant you that my pay disparity comment could potentially be inaccurate. But that's what the locals in the valley were saying.

I'd say that Cannon, Bretton Woods, Cranmore and Loon are the primary competition for Attitash and Wildcat. Yes, none of them had anywhere near the problems staffing lifts and snowmaking as Vail did at Wildcat and Attitash. Attitash especially was an unmitigated disaster all season long.

Maybe your ink drying point had something to do with it. I'll grant you that as well.

 

[Whitey]

Vail announced its acquistion of Peak in Summer 2019, and closed on Peak in Fall of 2019, about 6 months before Covid. Last season was the transition season from Peak to Vail. Before Covid, Vail should have been planning its integration of the Peak resorts into their systems and practices. The start of this season was a full 12 months after the closing of the sale, and there is no excuse for integration of Peak resorts to not be complete by then. The ink was dry long before this season started.

I said the turmoil related to the sale/transition. If you've ever been around a major corporate acquisition (I have, and not just VR/Peaks) then you would know it takes YEARS before the disruptions fully subside. And your schedule/calendar is off. All aspects of the financial transition were not complete until May 2020. Peaks was still paying the bills in April of 2020. They then got Dec/Jan/Feb of that ski season before CV19 blew everything up. The integration was done, the dust settling from that absolutely was not. . .

 

[dblskifanatic]

Possibly. But my best guess is they underestimated the mobility of the workforce and a lot of those people literally disappeared when they got furloughed. And most ski areas are not exactly based in areas of high population density anytway. If I were going by the stats - they are probably working in FL or TX now. A lot probably moved into construction/home related businesses as the building and real estate businesses are booming in these ski area towns & nearby areas.

VR did adjust their pay, you can argue "too little, too late". But what they seem to be focusing on now is "affordable housing". I think you will see a lot more hotels and rental properties converted to employee housing over the summer. I think this is smarter than just going after the pay issue. My belief is the #1 issue for people who take the lower paying jobs at a ski area is the lack of an affordable place to live that isn't 30-60 or more minutes away. Addressing that may be the smartest path to fixing the staffing problem.

The difference between this season and next? Work Visas! That simple. Many ski areas use foreign workers and that will make all the difference.

 

[cdskier]

I said the turmoil related to the sale/transition. If you've ever been around a major corporate acquisition (I have, and not just VR/Peaks) then you would know it takes YEARS before the disruptions fully subside. And your schedule/calendar is off. All aspects of the financial transition were not complete until May 2020. Peaks was still paying the bills in April of 2020. They then got Dec/Jan/Feb of that ski season before CV19 blew everything up. The integration was done, the dust settling from that absolutely was not. . .

I've been involved with major corporate acquisitions as well. If the integration caused a disruption to daily operations that are critical to your business, then whoever was managing the integration did a poor job. Shit being messed up on the backend is one thing, but customer facing disruptions really shouldn't happen in a properly managed acquisition/integration.

 

[Whitey]

I had an epic pass to ski wildcat and a cannon pass. The difference between how those two mountains ran this year was astounding. Because of that I had a much better experience at cannon therefore they get my pass money next year simple as that.

I will say the other epic mountains were doing better. I skied sunapee more than wildcat. Didn't see that one coming

Meh on this point: Cannon = a state run mountain with very, very minimal infrastructure and staffing did better in this environment. Not surprising.

An additional point all of you have missed - The cultural transition from Peaks to VR was significant in its impact on turnover. Peaks was a lot looser and a lot of long-time employees were used to that and had grown accustomed to it. No one likes change, even if it's for the better. Vail is run like a major corporation and it has rules and ways doing things and it takes a lot of getting used to if that's not the waters you are used to swimming in. The transition to VR did cause a lot of turnover and gasoline was thrown on that fire when a lot of those same employees who were struggling with the transition were furloughed. VR probably should have done a better job recognizing and reacting to that. I am sure if you gave Katz a couple of beers and he was "off the record" - he'd probably agree.

 

[Mainer]

Attitash also has no jumps this year after having a good park for the last 30 years

 

[snoseek]

Meh on this point: Cannon = a state run mountain with very, very minimal infrastructure and staffing did better in this environment. Not surprising.

An additional point all of you have missed - The cultural transition from Peaks to VR was significant in its impact on turnover. Peaks was a lot looser and a lot of long-time employees were used to that and had grown accustomed to it. No one likes change, even if it's for the better. Vail is run like a major corporation and it has rules and ways doing things and it takes a lot of getting used to if that's not the waters you are used to swimming in. The transition to VR did cause a lot of turnover and gasoline was thrown on that fire when a lot of those same employees who were struggling with the transition were furloughed. VR probably should have done a better job recognizing and reacting to that. I am sure if you gave Katz a couple of beers and he was "off the record" - he'd probably agree.

I lived through this at one of their other transitions 10 years ago. They lost alot of people, people that had made themselves valuable over the years. I'm sure they could have learned over the years how this sort of thing tends to play out and adjusted.

 

[deadheadskier]

Meh on this point: Cannon = a state run mountain with very, very minimal infrastructure and staffing did better in this environment. Not surprising.

Huh? Wildcat has a fraction of the staffing and infrastructure needs as Cannon. Attitash is about the same

 

[Smellytele]

Cannon is state run. Does it have less infrastructure than wildcat?

 

[Mainer]

What was strange about this season was with the reservation system you knew how many skiers were coming each day. If you have full parking lots and choose not to open 4 lifts at attitash and 2 at wildcat. That’s just poor management. Also they had mask nazis just walking around telling people to mask up. If they used those people to run another lift, it would prevent the huge lines. Increase social distance. Piss poor management

 

[Whitey]

I lived through this at one of their other transitions 10 years ago. They lost alot of people, people that had made themselves valuable over the years. I'm sure they could have learned over the years how this sort of thing tends to play out and adjusted.

We're both assuming that "retention after transition" is the goal. But if we are taking a cold hearted business approach to an acquisition/transition then there may be a "tear the bandaid off" aspect of this. If you are a major corporation managing a large acquisition you want the cultural transformation to happen as quickly as possible. How to do that? As painful as it may be in the short term - you are going to want people who can quickly adapt to your culture & methods staffing your operation. And the people who don't quickly adapt? Do you want that to drag out over years and possibly never happen? No, get along or get out and as much as it hurts in the first year or two - eventually you are staffed with people who understand and implement how you want things done (because they either adapted quickly or because they were hired by you to replace the person who left because they couldn't adapt). It's harsh but also logical and there could be a solid business case to be made that it is actually the smart play in managing a large acquisition.

 

[cdskier]

We're both assuming that "retention after transition" is the goal. But if we are taking a cold hearted business approach to an acquisition/transition then there may be a "tear the bandaid off" aspect of this. If you are a major corporation managing a large acquisition you want the cultural transformation to happen as quickly as possible. How to do that? As painful as it may be in the short term - you are going to want people who can quickly adapt to your culture & methods staffing your operation. And the people who don't quickly adapt? Do you want that to drag out over years and possibly never happen? No, get along or get out and as much as it hurts in the first year or two - eventually you are staffed with people who understand and implement how you want things done (because they either adapted quickly or because they were hired by you to replace the person who left because they couldn't adapt). It's harsh but also logical and there could be a solid business case to be made that it is actually the smart play in managing a large acquisition.

To be perfectly blunt, that's a piss-poor terrible attitude and stance. Having gone through multiple mergers over the years I can tell you the ones where the acquiring company tried to assimilate the people in the new acquisition into their culture are the ones that had the most problems and resulted in the lowest morale (among people from both sides of the acquisition/merger). The most successful mergers were the ones where the parent company realized that maybe there were things they could learn from the company they acquired and tried to take the best cultural aspects of each party to the merger.