VAIL SUCKS

[PAabe]

Of the 72 slides in that presentation there was very little about actually skiing, and there was hardly any mention what Vail is doing to provide a better product than the competition. I mean they do mention some stuff, but it's all numbers. What is Vail doing to make me want to ski there rather than their competitors - both other megapass and individual ski areas? Like by having happy employees, interesting ski areas, and a pleasant experience.

Can Vail continue to grow without simply getting existing customers of the places it buys out to join their pass? By having some of the highest relative lift ticket prices, are they trying to cater to the frequent skier for whom a pass would make sense (yet they claim to be making skiing more "accessible")? By attracting these frequent skier visits, will they be able to provide a good product while having a lower $-per-skier-visit, and will they be able to invest enough $ back in to deal with increased visitation?

Can Vail become a company of big data analysis/brand marketing without running the actual ski areas into the ground? We shall see I guess.

 

[PAabe]

Also:

Creating best-in-class digital experience and centralized guest contact centers

lmao

 

[deadheadskier]

From what I gather from that document,The average Epic skier only goes skiing about 4-6 times a season. That's the Colorado clientele and it's totally different from New England. It's a once a year Disneyland vacation for those folks See some mountains and snow then go back to 65 degree weather in Dallas in January. That's what the data has told them. The typical customer doesn't care if the experience sucks just as long as what they spend seems reasonable. That's the model.

Their ownership of anywhere in the East except Hunter, Snow, Okemo and Stowe is all about grabbing subscribers to hopefully vacation out West. Even those places are short money for Vacation bottom line compared to attracting people to Vail or Breck.

I really don't ever see them giving an F about their NH ski areas. Constant austerity measures. I hope I'm wrong because I love those areas and live here. But the writing on the wall seems clear, so I'm out. I'll ski at places that value the fulle time committed customers vs transactional ones

 

[cdskier]

Of the 72 slides in that presentation there was very little about actually skiing, and there was hardly any mention what Vail is doing to provide a better product than the competition. What is Vail doing to make me want to ski there rather than their competitors - both other megapass and individual ski areas?

Can Vail continue to grow without simply getting existing customers of the places it buys out to join their pass? By having some of the highest relative lift ticket prices, are they trying to cater to the frequent skier for whom a pass would make sense (yet they claim to be making skiing more "accessible")? By attracting these frequent skier visits, will they be able to provide a good product while having a lower $-per-skier-visit, and will they be able to invest enough $ back in to deal with increased visitation?

Can Vail become a company of big data analysis/brand marketing without running the actual ski areas into the ground? We shall see I guess.

But...they have an irreplaceable resort network! What more do skiers need?

The growth question is interesting as well. When I saw the slide about how pass revenue was increasing every year, I was wondering to myself how much of that was actually intrinsic growth vs growth through acquisitions. Of course you're going to sell more passes after buying new resorts because now you're getting all the pass sales from that resort's client base.

That said, the Epic Day pass at $67 for a day that is valid at Stowe on non-holidays is actually not a bad price at all. I paid $59/day back in 2008 when I was last there for a weekend trip.

 

[abc]

Of the 72 slides in that presentation there was very little about actually skiing, and there was hardly any mention what Vail is doing to provide a better product than the competition.

To be fair, it's the Investor Conference.

I bet many of the investors don't ski! They're there for the return of their investment.

So yes, if you want to say Vail doesn't car about skiing, you may have hit on some truth. Their investor doesn't care what business Vail is in, as long as its stock keeps going up. As for the management? Their mandate is the best return for their investor. Happy skiers may help that, or may not. Regardless, the "management" care the most about wringing the maximum amount of cash out of skiers. How it's done, either by providing excellent skiing experience, or best on mountain party scene, doesn't really matter to the investors.

 

[BenedictGomez]

I really don't ever see them giving an F about their NH ski areas. Constant austerity measures. I hope I'm wrong because I love those areas and live here.

You are not.

 

[thebigo]

I really don't ever see them giving an F about their NH ski areas. Constant austerity measures.

Took the kids to cranmore this week, then drove by attitash on the way to dinner. The contrast could not be more stark. Cranmore was sold out with people lining up to buy $10 hot dogs and cups of beer. Maintenance and construction everywhere at cranmore. Attitash has trees growing in the mountain coaster.

For those not from the area, the valley is typically busier in the summer than winter and attitash used to be a major draw. If they are willing to completely forgo summer operations and the accompanying epic pass advertising, I have no hope they will ever figure out winter operations. Unfortunately, it looks like the NH skier has no option than to wait them out and hope a competent operator picks up the pieces.

 

[Edd]

Took the kids to cranmore this week, then drove by attitash on the way to dinner. The contrast could not be more stark. Cranmore was sold out with people lining up to buy $10 hot dogs and cups of beer. Maintenance and construction everywhere at cranmore. Attitash has trees growing in the mountain coaster.

For those not from the area, the valley is typically busier in the summer than winter and attitash used to be a major draw. If they are willing to completely forgo summer operations and the accompanying epic pass advertising, I have no hope they will ever figure out winter operations. Unfortunately, it looks like the NH skier has no option than to wait them out and hope a competent operator picks up the pieces.

The skiing experience between Cranmore and Attitash is extremely different, with Attitash being a lot more challenging but the vibe at Cranmore is sooo much better to me. This was pre-Vail also.

 

[deadheadskier]

Took the kids to cranmore this week, then drove by attitash on the way to dinner. The contrast could not be more stark. Cranmore was sold out with people lining up to buy $10 hot dogs and cups of beer. Maintenance and construction everywhere at cranmore. Attitash has trees growing in the mountain coaster.

For those not from the area, the valley is typically busier in the summer than winter and attitash used to be a major draw. If they are willing to completely forgo summer operations and the accompanying epic pass advertising, I have no hope they will ever figure out winter operations. Unfortunately, it looks like the NH skier has no option than to wait them out and hope a competent operator picks up the pieces.

Yup it's just sad and makes me angry.

It's kinda like driving through an old town and seeing a once grand Victorian House rotting into the ground. The difference being when you see a house like that, it's usually owned by some poor old couple that has run out of money and energy to care for the property.

That's not Vail. They have plenty of money to care for and run these classic ski areas properly. But they don't. They're just a bunch of greedy fucks who don't care about their customers; families that have been making memories at these mountains for generations. Their customers are just numbers to them.

Out of principle I simply cannot give them another dime of my money until I see massive improvement.

I'm not holding my breath

 

[Middle-aged skier]

Yup it's just sad and makes me angry.

It's kinda like driving through an old town and seeing a once grand Victorian House rotting into the ground. The difference being when you see a house like that, it's usually owned by some poor old couple that has run out of money and energy to care for the property.

That's not Vail. They have plenty of money to care for and run these classic ski areas properly. But they don't. They're just a bunch of greedy fucks who don't care about their customers; families that have been making memories at these mountains for generations. Their customers are just numbers to them.

Out of principle I simply cannot give them another dime of my money until I see massive improvement.

I'm not holding my breath

I agree with every word you said, however I couldn’t not go to wildcat in early and late season. As far as “giving them another dime” you are a better man then me

 

[Harvey]

The average Epic skier only goes skiing about 4-6 times a season.

I think this is close to the average industry wide.

 

[kingslug]

Hmmm..that explains why the average Epic skier..is not that epic a skier.....

 

[deadheadskier]

I agree with every word you said, however I couldn’t not go to wildcat in early and late season. As far as “giving them another dime” you are a better man then me

Not an easy decision. I've been a regular at Wildcat since moving to NH in 2008. Had a pass there 8 of the last 9 seasons. It's become my favorite ski mountain in New England save for Saddleback. Always dreamed of raising my kids as Cat skiers.

But, Vail is just not worthy of my business.

Next year I have my 6 and soon to be 3 year old in seasonal programs at Gunstock and also have Indy passes. When the 3 year old is a bit more tolerant of frequent two hour drives, I'll shift them up to Cannon.

So, in Vails calculations on running their business based upon anticipated "lifetime value", they're missing out on likely a six figure spend from just my one family. Between passes, seasonal programs, F&B and retail it will add up quite a bit.

I hope Vail still provides the early and late season turns you desire. They hacked down the season pretty good last year. The days of Wildcat pushing for early November opening and May 1st closing ain't happening under Vail.

 

[Harvey]

So, in Vails calculations on running their business based upon anticipated "lifetime value", they're missing out on likely a six figure spend from just my one family. Between passes, seasonal programs, F&B and retail it will add up quite a bit.

Sad to say I don't think Vail cares.

I'm guessing, for Vail, lifetime value looks good in the annual report, and hey anything real comes of it, they'll take it. But I don't see it as an objective.

 

[Middle-aged skier]

Not an easy decision. I've been a regular at Wildcat since moving to NH in 2008. Had a pass there 8 of the last 9 seasons. It's become my favorite ski mountain in New England save for Saddleback. Always dreamed of raising my kids as Cat skiers.

But, Vail is just not worthy of my business.

Next year I have my 6 and soon to be 3 year old in seasonal programs at Gunstock and also have Indy passes. When the 3 year old is a bit more tolerant of frequent two hour drives, I'll shift them up to Cannon.

So, in Vails calculations on running their business based upon anticipated "lifetime value", they're missing out on likely a six figure spend from just my one family. Between passes, seasonal programs, F&B and retail it will add up quite a bit.

I hope Vail still provides the early and late season turns you desire. They hacked down the season pretty good last year. The days of Wildcat pushing for early November opening and May 1st closing ain't happening under Vail.

Just a place to ski before it fills in across the notch at this point. You won’t catch me at a resort when the turns are good in the backcountry.

 

[Smellytele]

Unfortunately, it looks like the NH skier has no option than to wait them out and hope a competent operator picks up the pieces.

Matters where in NH. Being in central NH I have Cannon as an option.

 

[JimG.]

Out of principle I simply cannot give them another dime of my money until I see massive improvement.

I'm not holding my breath

I predict you will become a Saddleback season passholder and potential property owner there as well.

 

[deadheadskier]

I predict you will become a Saddleback season passholder and potential property owner there as well.

Oh man, if my life circumstances were different I totally would be planning for that. Saddleback for sure would be my first choice. It's just too far for me to commit to every weekend. It's about 3.5 hours in good weather. That's not terrible, but I travel so much for work midweek that my tolerance for long drives on the weekends is low.

Current plan in to eventually buy a second home in Meredith, NH area. That would put us about 45-50 minutes to Cannon and 25 minutes to our marina on the other side of Lake Winnipesaukee. That would be about perfect as we are 2 hours from Cannon and 1 hour from the marina at our primary residence currently. We have zero desire to boat out of anywhere else, so proximity to the marina is equally as important as proximity to skiing for us. And we love where our primary residence is. God willing we stay in Newmarket until the dirt nap. We never want to leave. But having easier access to our recreational passions is for sure the dream.

 

[BenedictGomez]

I think this is close to the average industry wide.

Yup; the data show that pretty much every year since forever.

 

[cdskier]

Yup; the data show that pretty much every year since forever.

Overall yes, although pass-holders typically are above that number. The last NSAA data on that topic said pass-holders in the northeast region averaged almost 14 days per pass, while all other regions are in the 9 to 11 days per passholder range. So Epic averaging only 4-6 days for their passholders is below average across the board from the perspective of skiers with passes. This could be skewed downward though for Epic right off the bat if Vail considers the "Epic Day Pass" holders as "passholders" (which I think they do based on the presentation earlier in this thread).