VAIL SUCKS

[raisingarizona]

That is kind of ridiculous. My best guess is it's probably some maintenance that has to be done at 50 hours after initial start up or something like that. Keep in mind they've only been open since the 26th and I could see something like that happen.

Why they didn't do it after the day was finished, that I can explain, other than to speculate they didn't want to pay people to work at night. And I could be completely wrong and they could just be idiots for scheduling at the way they did.

I will say me and my kids had a great day skiing there today. I had never been there and my expectations were low. They were greatly surpassed. Even with just half of the trails open it was a fun place to ski. In the morning it was hard pack and got scraped off pretty quick but then as the day warmed up the snow softened up and it was really good.

They had a small terrain park with small features open which was perfect for us.

Glad I bailed on going to Okemo and went to crotchet instead. Most likely going back Friday.

Pretty sad that based on what I've seen at Sunapee attitash and wildcat that crotched is Vail's crown jewel in New Hampshire at the moment.

If there are corporate office workers looking at numbers that makes complete sense being the closest area to Boston.

Why make your pass holders drive farther to ski your most professionally run area? If they can save on gas the more likely they’ll buy your 18 dollar cheese burger.

I think it’s pretty obvious that Vail doesn’t care about the long term. For whatever reason they are coming in hot to grab what they can and quick.

 

[deadheadskier]

That is kind of ridiculous. My best guess is it's probably some maintenance that has to be done at 50 hours after initial start up or something like that. Keep in mind they've only been open since the 26th and I could see something like that happen.

Why they didn't do it after the day was finished, that I can explain, other than to speculate they didn't want to pay people to work at night. And I could be completely wrong and they could just be idiots for scheduling at the way they did.

I will say me and my kids had a great day skiing there today. I had never been there and my expectations were low. They were greatly surpassed. Even with just half of the trails open it was a fun place to ski. In the morning it was hard pack and got scraped off pretty quick but then as the day warmed up the snow softened up and it was really good.

They had a small terrain park with small features open which was perfect for us.

Glad I bailed on going to Okemo and went to crotchet instead. Most likely going back Friday.

Pretty sad that based on what I've seen at Sunapee attitash and wildcat that crotched is Vail's crown jewel in New Hampshire at the moment.

Reasonable explanation. I know nothing about lift maintenance, but I've never seen something like that happen anywhere in 39 years of skiing. Having to close an entire mountain during a holiday week to service all the lifts that would be.

Glad you had a great day at Crotched. For a small place they punch well above their weight. Go back when the trees are in play. They have some really great trees both on and especially off map. One of my top ten days ever was there following an 18" storm that hit just right such that the masses couldn't make it to the hill until about noon. Ripped a solid 20 runs before noon with fresh tracks every run. It was particularly satisfying because I was supposed to be at a meeting in Seattle, but my flight got cancelled because of the storm. The people who work there are fantastic as well.

 

[Kingslug20]

I always thought that when you buy real estate or a business..the goal is to improve it...
Not run it into the ground...

 

[raisingarizona]

I always thought that when you buy real estate or a business..the goal is to improve it...
Not run it into the ground...

That’s not the game they’re playing.

 

[abc]

I always thought that when you buy real estate or a business..the goal is to improve it...
Not run it into the ground...

I don't think it's too complicated. Vail wanted some of the Peak's portfolio, say Okemo and Mount Snow (maybe Hunter, or maybe not). But Peak would only sell the entire collection. Vail consider the price acceptable even if they just keep the ones they really want...

(I do that when I buy a used bike, or a house. Not every single item in the "package" is to my liking. But I consider the main part worth the money. The parts I don't like? I may get rid of them, or get used to them. So they got neglected till I come around to think about them, in a few years time...)

Vail most likely haven't decided on what to do with the rest in that package. So the last thing they want to do is to spend money on them.

Seems like people aren't complaining too much on the mountains in Vermont. Looks to me that's what Vail really want and they do pay attention to run them "normally".

 

[machski]

I don't think it's too complicated. Vail wanted some of the Peak's portfolio, say Okemo and Mount Snow (maybe Hunter, or maybe not). But Peak would only sell the entire collection. Vail consider the price acceptable even if they just keep the ones they really want...

(I do that when I buy a used bike, or a house. Not every single item in the "package" is to my liking. But I consider the main part worth the money. The parts I don't like? I may get rid of them, or get used to them. So they got neglected till I come around to think about them, in a few years time...)

Vail most likely haven't decided on what to do with the rest in that package. So the last thing they want to do is to spend money on them.

Seems like people aren't complaining too much on the mountains in Vermont. Looks to me that's what Vail really want and they do pay attention to run them "normally".

Except Okemo was not part of Peaks. Vail already had that area (along with Sunapee and Crested Butte).

 

[deadheadskier]

I don't think it's too complicated. Vail wanted some of the Peak's portfolio, say Okemo and Mount Snow (maybe Hunter, or maybe not). But Peak would only sell the entire collection. Vail consider the price acceptable even if they just keep the ones they really want...

(I do that when I buy a used bike, or a house. Not every single item in the "package" is to my liking. But I consider the main part worth the money. The parts I don't like? I may get rid of them, or get used to them. So they got neglected till I come around to think about them, in a few years time...)

Vail most likely haven't decided on what to do with the rest in that package. So the last thing they want to do is to spend money on them.

Seems like people aren't complaining too much on the mountains in Vermont. Looks to me that's what Vail really want and they do pay attention to run them "normally".

Of course Vail would have preferred to buy the best performing mountains in the Peak portfolio. Most public takeovers don't work like that though. It wasn't a case of Peak only agreeing to sell it all, they were a publicly traded company performing poorly on their balance sheets. Their only option really was to have the entire corporation bought out. If they sold off only their best performing properties they'd be left to struggle with low income properties and a stock value of pennies.

I don't see Vail trying to "figure out" what to do with low performing assets. They know exactly what they are doing with them. Controlling the regional season pass markets, that drives guaranteed cash flow, which inspires shareholder confidence. Shareholders don't see financial performance by individual ski area in the Vail portfolio. They just see overall performance. I think they'll be completely fine holding the NH properties as lost leaders to control market share. Apologize once a year blaming the weather.

 

[Kingslug20]

Considering all the hate..spewed all over the country at Vail...i dont see there strategy as a good thing...certainly not in the long run.
Hear anything good about them???

 

[Kingslug20]

But then again..they apparently are no longer a ski company..

 

[deadheadskier]

Considering all the hate..spewed all over the country at Vail...i dont see there strategy as a good thing...certainly not in the long run.
Hear anything good about them???

Next year will be the barometer. They sold an insane amount of passes this season. They're guaranteed a whole bunch more pass sales next year with the 7Springs buy out. Just bought out that entire market.

So as long as they keep showing net gain in pass sales with "disciplined" exoenses, the stock shines. That's what matters

 

[eatskisleep]

I'm old. I remember the Snow Lake Lodge when it was the premier place in Southern Vermont with the George Jetson saucer lift over the pond and the geyser in the pond with people hiking it and skiing it in the spring. The Mixing Bowl beginner lift on a track. The 2-seater gondola where you didn't need to take your skis off. Heated outdoor swimming pool and indoor skating rink inside the base lodge. The Jets even had a good football team.

2 seater gondola where you can keep your skis on?!

Next year will be the barometer. They sold an insane amount of passes this season. They're guaranteed a whole bunch more pass sales next year with the 7Springs buy out. Just bought out that entire market.

So as long as they keep showing net gain in pass sales with "disciplined" exoenses, the stock shines. That's what matters

yep you hit the Nail on the head.

 

[cdskier]

Next year will be the barometer. They sold an insane amount of passes this season. They're guaranteed a whole bunch more pass sales next year with the 7Springs buy out. Just bought out that entire market.

So as long as they keep showing net gain in pass sales with "disciplined" exoenses, the stock shines. That's what matters

Yea...I think the number of people that will complain but still buy a pass because it is "cheap" will still vastly outweigh the number of people that will go elsewhere. In the grand scheme of things, the NH market that they're neglecting the most is only a tiny fraction of their overall portfolio. As long as overall numbers are good, stock-holders and the board will have no clue that there are major issues and dislike of the way Vail does things.

 

[abc]

I don't see Vail trying to "figure out" what to do with low performing assets. They know exactly what they are doing with them. Controlling the regional season pass markets, that drives guaranteed cash flow, which inspires shareholder confidence.

I don't quite understand the point you are trying to make.

If Vail is holding on to NH resorts to "control regional season pass market", they would need to do whatever it takes to keep the existing customer base from evaporating. Given the past 2 year's performance, they didn't even do the minimum required to hang on to their existing customers. Some are leaving for other mountains nearby.

I think they'll be completely fine holding the NH properties as lost leaders to control market share. Apologize once a year blaming the weather.

It's ok to holding on to the NH properties as lose leaders. But it only works if they're able to count on those pass sales as "market share". Having a shorter season and lower percentage open than all of their neighbors 2 years in a row doesn't encourage future pass purchase.

 

[deadheadskier]

The natives are getting restless in the west

https://www.change.org/p/vail-resorts-hold-vail-resorts-accountable

While absolutely still a Hail Mary (most change.org or similar campaigns are), this probably is the best way to challenge the Vail problem with it's focus on blaming Vail as inadequate stewards of facilities on public lands and having a negative impact on local communities.

And maybe that's how things should be approached here in New Hampshire. Get enough local business and public scrutiny of Vail operations on public lands. State lands in the case of Sunapee. Federal lands in the case of Wildcat. Break the leases and return the recreation to the state.

How cool would that be? A Cannon, Sunapee, Wildcat pass with affordable NH resident pricing and competitive regional pricing. There would be good affordable skiing with reasonable driving access from virtually anywhere in the State. All three areas just about the skiing and mountain recreation activities. No resort bullshit.

I don't think you could call yourself a loyal granite stater and not buy that pass.

 

[deadheadskier]

I don't quite understand the point you are trying to make.

If Vail is holding on to NH resorts to "control regional season pass market", they would need to do whatever it takes to keep the existing customer base from evaporating. Given the past 2 year's performance, they didn't even do the minimum required to hang on to their existing customers. Some are leaving for other mountains nearby.


It's ok to holding on to the NH properties as lose leaders. But it only works if they're able to count on those pass sales as "market share". Having a shorter season and lower percentage open than all of their neighbors 2 years in a row doesn't encourage future pass purchase.

A minor reduction in pass sales due to poor performance at the NH areas can be easily tolerated. Especially if they are run on an austerity budget.

Remember, an Epic Pass sale still in most circumstances means some other company isn't getting pass revenue. The loss leaders are almost a defensive position in that regard towards Ikon, Boyne etc.

So Vail gambles that the sheer number of ski areas available in a convenient enough location at an affordable price drives the market.

So far they are right.

 

[abc]

Remember, an Epic Pass sale still in most circumstances means some other company isn't getting pass revenue. The loss leaders are almost a defensive position in that regard towards Ikon, Boyne etc.

If you're suggesting Vail holding onto Wildcat and Attitash to prevent Alterra from buying it, I can understand.

On the other hand, running them "on an austerity budget" also drives many away. Especially with several Alterra mountains at various distance away (e.g. Sunday River pretty close by). Casual skiers who had a bad experience during this year's could choose to go IKON next year.

 

[raisingarizona]

While absolutely still a Hail Mary (most change.org or similar campaigns are), this probably is the best way to challenge the Vail problem with it's focus on blaming Vail as inadequate stewards of facilities on public lands and having a negative impact on local communities.

And maybe that's how things should be approached here in New Hampshire. Get enough local business and public scrutiny of Vail operations on public lands. State lands in the case of Sunapee. Federal lands in the case of Wildcat. Break the leases and return the recreation to the state.

How cool would that be? A Cannon, Sunapee, Wildcat pass with affordable NH resident pricing and competitive regional pricing. There would be good affordable skiing with reasonable driving access from virtually anywhere in the State. All three areas just about the skiing and mountain recreation activities. No resort bullshit.

I don't think you could call yourself a loyal granite stater and not buy that pass.

The USFS can’t afford a fight with a corporation as powerful as Vail.

 

[deadheadskier]

The USFS can’t afford a fight with a corporation as powerful as Vail.

I do not need this kind of negativity in my life

 

[jaytrem]

2 seater gondola where you can keep your skis on?!

My mom and sister riding it...

 

[skef]

My mom and sister riding it...

Early bubble chair?