VAIL SUCKS

[Bostonian]

To deflect away from VaxxWarz:

Mike Barnicle had it right. This was a Boston Globe OpEd and my favorite New Hampshire slam.

Vermont vs. New Hampshire

boulter.com

So Vail has no interest in the North Conway ski areas. They’re Arkansas with snow. LOL. Sunapee is at least on the way to Vermont and is a Boston day trip area. I drove past it thousands of times headed to Vermont and just skied it for the first time this year. Ditto Crotched as a Boston day trip ski area like the mighty Wa-Wachusett.

Personally, I like NH over Vermont for scenic beauty. I do agree that at the moment, it seems Vail could care less about North Conway. For them it’s all about Okemo and Stowe, from a brand perspective. That sucks for those of us who love NH and visit often. I’m hoping the complaints they receive will make them re-analyze their business model for the northeast. Otherwise, I would be happy if they unloaded Attitash and Wildcat to an owner who actually cares about skiing in NH.

 

[johnl87]

And perhaps if you read my answer earlier, you would see that a vax mandate, reduces the influx of critically sick individuals overwhelming the hospitals in the area. I get it you’re a “my freedom and my rights” guy … so here is the open market - you don’t like that Vail has a vax mandate, take your $$$ elsewhere.

the hospital in the mt. washington valley wasn't overwhelmed prior to the vaccine mandate. i'm not saying the mandate caused the cases to spike up here, but it certainly didn't reduce them!

but you're right - it's an open market, and other ski area owners weren't authoritarian like vail. fortunately we have much better ski area owners to work for in the valley.

 

[Mainer]

My wife works in the local hospital, main reason for overcrowding right now is the lack of beds in nursing homes. They keep getting old people and have no where to place them. It’s the same thing at nursing homes and ski areas, if you can find somebody willing to do a shitty Job for low pay, you try your best to retain them.

 

[TyWebb]

Yet, Crotched and Sunapee have blown snow... So there goes your theory. Perhaps, it is more to do with Vail's inflexibility of providing a living wage. Where I work, we have a vax mandate and only lost less than 1% of our workforce who refused to follow science.

It's a combination of both the wages being offered and the vax mandate.

Vail should have more local input to get the feel for what each mountains market is offering ie wages. Reality is to sit outside in the cold all day they should be offering more $$ per hour thn the local DD or grocery store for arguments sake. It's an extremely competitive environment for employees and Vail has not adjusted. Vail then goes and complicates it even further by not realizing that there are many employable individuals who have no desire to be forced to put experimental medicine into their body ... especially if something goes wrong and there is no recourse because the federal government protected the big pharma companies

 

[jaytrem]

They’re Arkansas with snow.

Poor Arkansas. The Northwest section is very nice. Really liked Eureka Springs.

 

[machski]

Crotched now has 20/26 trails open. Once weather conditions were right for snowmaking, they caught up with other mountains their size (Wachusett, Pats Peak). Sunapee is 43/67... So again try again

All the scientific literature points to the fact that vaccines are far more effective than catching covid. Having worked in one Boston's largest hospitals, the consensus has always been getting vaccinated is the best way to combat this.

Next..

Well, let's see. Pat's and Wachusett didn't chop off two full days and at least 2 nights off their operational calendars either. Crotched did, so I would imagine that also indicates snowmakers are doubling as lift ops. Those two closed days for skiing, they have been blowing snow on.

 

[xlr8r]

I am getting sick of the Vax talk, IMO lets try to keep the politics out of this forum. My view is that even if Vail did not have a vax requirement, the still would be doing just as bad operationally as they are now with the vax requirement. All this Vax talk is a tiny issue when it comes to how much Vail sucks

 

[FBGM]

Hey this is about how Vail sucks now how Covid sucks.

Back to Vail bashing now!

 

[drjeff]

How cute, bluanon, so damn original.

And perhaps if you read my answer earlier, you would see that a vax mandate, reduces the influx of critically sick individuals overwhelming the hospitals in the area. I get it you’re a “my freedom and my rights” guy … so here is the open market - you don’t like that Vail has a vax mandate, take your $$$ elsewhere.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong on this.

Is it also fair to say that in some instances, the Vaxx mandate has made the work force supply tighter for some hospitals, which is also having an affect on the number of beds available for those who are sick enough to require hospitalization?

And one can certainly make the case that based on what those choosing to not comply with the Vaxx mandate often say, they had Covid in the past (potentially even acquired while they were working early on in the pandemic) and as such as the science seems to show, have just as much, if not more immunity (depending on who's studies you're reading) to Covid than someone who may have just been vaxxed and not had Covid?

Ultimately with the healthcare facilities and the mandate status it's all tied to federal healthcare dollars coming into the facilities, and the federal government telling those facilities that if their employees aren't vaxxed, the Federal Government won't be sending the checks to the healthcare facilities for treatment on people who have federally sponsored health insurance plans

There are many peices of this puzzle that just don't make much logical sense these days from multiple viewpoints on the topic.

As for how the Vaxx mandate had affected Vail (to try and pivot somewhat back on topic), It seems that it has affected certain jobs more than others, and those jobs, while maybe not the greatest numbers in terms of total employees, are often of very high significance for day to day resort operations. Add in the tight available employee market now (again for NUMEROUS reasons) and you help create the situation that Vail is in, and maybe on the back side of this, from a management standpoint, they will need to seriously think about how they're compensating some of their employees, since while aside from their hourly rate, they do have some decent benefits for employees, which may not be quite as attractive for some as seeing more in their hourly rate. Heck, I know in my own business, that as the owner, I see how much extra $$ the benefits paid to my employees add up to (and will remind them of that) , but often it seems as if paying the equivalent extra per hour that the benfits add up to over the course of a year, might be more appreciated than the benefits themself.

 

[IceEidolon]

The question is what benefit does the mountain gain by making 20 yr old snowmakers be vaccinated? Also why does Stowe’s staff being vaccinated make you feel safer if your vaxxed boosted and I assume masking up? If you can still give it and get being vaccinated, what’s the difference, you’re protected. And if you are worried about overwhelming the hospital, maybe you should stay home as skiing is risky and could take another bed.
The vail mandate nonsense is just virtue signaling. They played the woke card instead of playing the skiing card

If your snowmaking crew gets stay-at-home ordered - or worse, all get sick - mid season, you're up shit creek. Same with snowcat operators if you have two shifts or swap cats or share a break/locker room. It is absolutely a risk, even moreso if you have a bunch of rookies and one senior guy to run the pumps and compressors and valves - lose that senior guy and you're sunk for seven days (or at best gutting one shift to cover the missing shift.)

Unvaccinated employees are absolutely a bigger risk because they're more likely to get sick, more likely to transmit the virus, more likely not to have been masking/being generally responsible and so transmitted it to more staff, more likely to be out long term, more likely to be hospitalized. Requiring vaccinations is one of the very few things Vail's done right.

 

[thetrailboss]

To deflect away from VaxxWarz:

Mike Barnicle had it right. This was a Boston Globe OpEd and my favorite New Hampshire slam.

Vermont vs. New Hampshire

boulter.com

So Vail has no interest in the North Conway ski areas. They’re Arkansas with snow. LOL. Sunapee is at least on the way to Vermont and is a Boston day trip area. I drove past it thousands of times headed to Vermont and just skied it for the first time this year. Ditto Crotched as a Boston day trip ski area like the mighty Wa-Wachusett.

Another way to look at it is that Vermont has the Boston AND NYC markets. NH just has Boston.

 

[Geoff]

I don’t think you want to get the true story since it conflicts with your narrative. This is about collapsing the public health system in the United States. If we had vaccinated everyone, it wouldn’t have happened. You don’t want to have a serious medical problem right now. You’ll get third world-level care. From almost Killingly, your real hospitals are, what, UMass Medical, RI Hospital, and Hartford Hospital & St Francis? Maybe Bay State. If you have a stroke and need a clot buster in a hurry, you’re going to be crapping into an adult diaper for the rest of your life.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong on this

 

[ss20]

I don't get the "Vail requires employees to be vaxxed so that's why they're down on staff" argument. Powdr resorts also require vax and they're hurting but not as bad as Vail. Same with the few Alterra resorts I spot checked.

Vail just sucks to work for. Period. In an industry that overall sucks to work in, they suck the hardest. No one...and I mean literally no one I've talked to... has enjoyed their time working under Vail. My favorite story is an instructor who taught at Okemo. He taught part-time and worked in the airline industry part-time. At first he loved it since he got an Epic pass for free and then could fly wherever he wanted for cheap/free. He literally had the perfect setup. I believe he lasted two seasons of Vail-owned Okemo. He had been there maybe 7ish years total. He said class sizes doubled and they'd no longer give out assistants to large kids classes... and working for less pay...

 

[abc]

If your snowmaking crew gets stay-at-home ordered - or worse, all get sick - mid season, you're up shit creek. Same with snowcat operators if you have two shifts or swap cats or share a break/locker room. It is absolutely a risk, even moreso if you have a bunch of rookies and one senior guy to run the pumps and compressors and valves - lose that senior guy and you're sunk for seven days (or at best gutting one shift to cover the missing shift.)

Unvaccinated employees are absolutely a bigger risk because they're more likely to get sick, more likely to transmit the virus, more likely not to have been masking/being generally responsible and so transmitted it to more staff, more likely to be out long term, more likely to be hospitalized. Requiring vaccinations is one of the very few things Vail's done right.

What you described makes sense before Omicron (which both infects vaccinated people just as well AND are relatively mild in symptoms). And before the Supreme Court shut down the administration's mandate on large employers.

Vail made a sensible decision back in November. But that decision no longer make sense now.

Things had moved on. Vail have not kept up. (and nor did you, if I may say so)

 

[Geoff]

Another way to look at it is that Vermont has the Boston AND NYC markets. NH just has Boston.

I was just unsuccessfully trolling the thread to get it off the vaccine topic. I lived in Portsmouth for a decade and worked in the NH border towns for 20 years. My first turns at age 6 in lace boots and cable bindings were at Cranmore. I understand the New Hampshire value proposition. Personally, I don’t think Vail cares about North Conway so the two ski areas are under a “don’t lose too much money this year” edict. As a business, Vail cares about $ per day skier yield. They don’t see a penny from North Conway lodging. The customer base isn’t spending big on-mountain.

 

[deadheadskier]

I was just unsuccessfully trolling the thread to get it off the vaccine topic. I lived in Portsmouth for a decade and worked in the NH border towns for 20 years. My first turns at age 6 in lace boots and cable bindings were at Cranmore. I understand the New Hampshire value proposition. Personally, I don’t think Vail cares about North Conway so the two ski areas are under a “don’t lose too much money this year” edict. As a business, Vail cares about $ per day skier yield. They don’t see a penny from North Conway lodging. The customer base isn’t spending big on-mountain.

I think you are exactly right. Vail has two categories.

1. The cash cow acquisitions
2. The market defense acquisitions

New Hampshire and I suspect many of the mid Atlantic properties were market defense acquisitions. They have no interest in really growing the business at those areas. They just win by not having people buy passes elsewhere. Attitash is a perfect example. It had one of the busiest summer businesses of any ski area in the East. They all but mothballed the place last summer.

I'd be livid if I lived in areas in the Mid Atlantic that basically are a Vail monopoly. At least in NH we have options. The Wildcat skiers will move over to Cannon; the Attitash skiers head over to Bretton Woods or Cranmore; Sunapee skiers to Ragged, Loon or Gunstock and Crotched skiers Pats.

 

[thetrailboss]

I think you are exactly right. Vail has two categories.

1. The cash cow acquisitions
2. The market defense acquisitions

New Hampshire and I suspect many of the mid Atlantic properties were market defense acquisitions. They have no interest in really growing the business at those areas. They just win by not having people buy passes elsewhere. Attitash is a perfect example. It had one of the busiest summer businesses of any ski area in the East. They all but mothballed the place last summer.

I'd be livid if I lived in areas in the Mid Atlantic that basically are a Vail monopoly. At least in NH we have options. The Wildcat skiers will move over to Cannon; the Attitash skiers head over to Bretton Woods or Cranmore; Sunapee skiers to Ragged, Loon or Gunstock and Crotched skiers Pats.

I am surprised that nobody has complained that Vail has too much control of the NH market. The DOJ threatened action with ASC for owning Waterville Valley, Attitash, and Cranmore. Vail now controls Attitash, Sunapee, Crotched, and Wildcat. I would think that this is a significant amount of NH's total skier days.

 

[So Inclined]

My favorite story is an instructor who taught at Okemo. He taught part-time and worked in the airline industry part-time. At first he loved it since he got an Epic pass for free and then could fly wherever he wanted for cheap/free. He literally had the perfect setup. I believe he lasted two seasons of Vail-owned Okemo. He had been there maybe 7ish years total. He said class sizes doubled and they'd no longer give out assistants to large kids classes... and working for less pay...

My firsthand part-timer perspective: things are mixed. Class sizes at my mountain have gone way down (because bus trips full of mostly first-timers and beginners have all but stopped since March 2020.) I teach a lot more private lessons - whereas in the past that typically meant a solo adult with a little experience and a fair amount of money who wanted individual attention to get better, now a private may mean a child, or two children, or a family, or who knows. Private lessons are actively promoted by the mountain as the way to go for anyone who's better than beginner level - they're not really doing intermediate-and-above level group lessons, iirc. So if you're not a total newbie/fresh Level I instructor, you're probably getting more privates. I sure am. To be honest, the tips I'm getting are much, much better because the clientele is more people who can afford to spend on private lessons for their kids (or themselves) instead of throwing them in groups.
There's a lot less instructors now, especially this year, for reasons which are well-covered in this thread. It feels a bit Left Behindish around the ski school sometimes but those of us there are doing the best we can for each other and those we teach.
The "assistants" deal, as far as I understand, had to do with Vail's refusal to hire teenagers. That really hurts staffing in the near-term - the teenagers really were a big part of making the kids program run smoothly without ever getting on the snow - and in the longer-term by shutting off a conduit by which youth skiers become young instructors. I believe that policy has been modified now.

 

[deadheadskier]

I am surprised that nobody has complained that Vail has too much control of the NH market. The DOJ threatened action with ASC for owning Waterville Valley, Attitash, and Cranmore. Vail now controls Attitash, Sunapee, Crotched, and Wildcat. I would think that this is a significant amount of NH's total skier days.

It would appear in general that US society cares far less about antitrust laws than two decades ago. Tons of consolidation across many industries that really limit competition and create monopolies.

 

[Kingslug20]

Met plenty of people from NH at Stowe this week..