VAIL SUCKS

[Cobbold]

Here's why I think it goes beyond the local inexperienced GM F'ing up at Attitash.

This mornings snow report stated snowmaking resumes Wednesday and they will have more terrain open for the weekend. The snow is there right now on Cathedral trail to push out and open it. It's Monday. Skip grooming something else for a night and open the trail. You don't even have to open the Yankee chair if you are that short staffed. You can access that trail from the Triple via Tightrope.

Mind you, Cathedral also has a ton of slopeside homes and condos on it. Those owners must be positively livid.

I can't be convinced that cost containment directives from Colorado arent influencing at least partially what is going on at Attitash.

 

[Cobbold]

Wouldn’t the same cost containment that vail is requiring of wildcat and atitash be also on Sunape, okemo,crotched Mt snow, round top etc in the northeast, they all seem to be working, I onced work in an organization with a guy who got fired from another organization because he wouldn’t spend the company’s money on their clients, he was a millionaire but couldn’t spend money his or any else’s, maybe vail is so focused on money these new guys are paralyzed by this and can’t spend money, who knows what’s going on, but the other northeast resorts seem to be functioning with essentially the same weather and financial constraints.

 

[Mainer]

If you own a million dollar slope side home on Abenaki. There has to be some sort of agreement to provide access to those houses. If not, I dont want to be that developer

 

[deadheadskier]

Wouldn’t the same cost containment that vail is requiring of wildcat and atitash be also on Sunape, okemo,crotched Mt snow, round top etc in the northeast, they all seem to be working, I onced work in an organization with a guy who got fired from another organization because he wouldn’t spend the company’s money on their clients, he was a millionaire but couldn’t spend money his or any else’s, maybe vail is so focused on money these new guys are paralyzed by this and can’t spend money, who knows what’s going on, but the other northeast resorts seem to be functioning with essentially the same weather and financial constraints.

It has at every Epic resort in New England.

Grew up skiing Okemo from 84-94. Stowe was my home mountain outside of a few seasons from 95-2005. Okemo I haven't much followed in 20 years, but their count looks light compared to what prior owners did. Stowe I do very much follow and ski. They are way down.

Even during the worst of winters weather wise, Stowe would have Lift line, Hayride, Cliff Trail, Gondolier and Nosedive open by now and several others.

Mind you, I get it. All tourism businesses are just trying to survive during this unprecedented disruption in life . I certainly wasn't expecting Vail to make snow like normal times. But, they did start the year with the same amount of pass revenue in pocket as last year. Something like 50-75 % of the normal efforts would seem reasonable given the loss of other revenue streams. It would appear that's what is happening at most Northeastern resorts. I'd put Attitash and Wildcat well below 50% effort.

Katz HAS to know this.

Hard for any MWV Epic skier to trust they will treat those areas and customers better next season.

 

[crystalmountainskier]

They are clearly trying to control costs above all else. I was at Wilmot in Wisconsin today. Packed house but only three of seven chairs in operation. Tons of natural snow and every other mountain in the region is 100 percent open.

Vail is not a ski company. Skiing is just a vehicle for creating stock market value.

 

[Cobbold]

It has at every Epic resort in New England.

Grew up skiing Okemo from 84-94. Stowe was my home mountain outside of a few seasons from 95-2005. Okemo I haven't much followed in 20 years, but their count looks light compared to what prior owners did. Stowe I do very much follow and ski. They are way down.

Even during the worst of winters weather wise, Stowe would have Lift line, Hayride, Cliff Trail, Gondolier and Nosedive open by now and several others.

Mind you, I get it. All tourism businesses are just trying to survive during this unprecedented disruption in life . I certainly wasn't expecting Vail to make snow like normal times. But, they did start the year with the same amount of pass revenue in pocket as last year. Something like 50-75 % of the normal efforts would seem reasonable given the loss of other revenue streams. It would appear that's what is happening at most Northeastern resorts. I'd put Attitash and Wildcat well below 50% effort.

Katz HAS to know this.

Hard for any MWV Epic skier to trust they will treat those areas and customers better next season.

well time will tell if epic steps up for the mwv pass holder, but this will put the rubber to the road for wildcat and atitash, if vail has plans to enhance These two areas to take market share from loon, Waterville valley etc, vail will announce these plans sooner than later, or maybe some suggest after COVID 19 they sell these resorts, together I don’t think you could get much for them, peak resorts had wildcat skier visits at 66 000 per there 10 k, atitash had 170000 skier visits, together you couldn’t get more than 35 million for them, but if vail is selling then people smell blood and the price drops. Unless of course vail trades them to say powder Corp for say cooper Mtn and cash, highly unlikely but who knows. My guess when vail bought peaks resorts they did so with a short term plan and a long term plan for each resort, and COVID 19, the weather, a thin gm bench exposed a vail weakness, that going forward won’t happen again, but time will tell. But while wmv epic pass holders are complaining about atitash & wildcat, over on the pugski forum ikon holders are complaining about the ikon pass reservation system, ny ski blog skiers are complaining about one of the new lifts at gore, what you gonna do,lol

 

[snoseek]

Vail will sink minimal if any money into Wildcat good season or bad.

 

[eatskisleep]

well time will tell if epic steps up for the mwv pass holder, but this will put the rubber to the road for wildcat and atitash, if vail has plans to enhance These two areas to take market share from loon, Waterville valley etc, vail will announce these plans sooner than later, or maybe some suggest after COVID 19 they sell these resorts, together I don’t think you could get much for them, peak resorts had wildcat skier visits at 66 000 per there 10 k, atitash had 170000 skier visits, together you couldn’t get more than 35 million for them, but if vail is selling then people smell blood and the price drops. Unless of course vail trades them to say powder Corp for say cooper Mtn and cash, highly unlikely but who knows. My guess when vail bought peaks resorts they did so with a short term plan and a long term plan for each resort, and COVID 19, the weather, a thin gm bench exposed a vail weakness, that going forward won’t happen again, but time will tell. But while wmv epic pass holders are complaining about atitash & wildcat, over on the pugski forum ikon holders are complaining about the ikon pass reservation system, ny ski blog skiers are complaining about one of the new lifts at gore, what you gonna do,lol

$35 million seems Steep... wasn’t wildcat sold for $4.5 million a decade ago??
Edit nvm
https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1517401/000104746914008395/a2221701zex-10_22.htm

 

[snoseek]

well time will tell if epic steps up for the mwv pass holder, but this will put the rubber to the road for wildcat and atitash, if vail has plans to enhance These two areas to take market share from loon, Waterville valley etc, vail will announce these plans sooner than later, or maybe some suggest after COVID 19 they sell these resorts, together I don’t think you could get much for them, peak resorts had wildcat skier visits at 66 000 per there 10 k, atitash had 170000 skier visits, together you couldn’t get more than 35 million for them, but if vail is selling then people smell blood and the price drops. Unless of course vail trades them to say powder Corp for say cooper Mtn and cash, highly unlikely but who knows. My guess when vail bought peaks resorts they did so with a short term plan and a long term plan for each resort, and COVID 19, the weather, a thin gm bench exposed a vail weakness, that going forward won’t happen again, but time will tell. But while wmv epic pass holders are complaining about atitash & wildcat, over on the pugski forum ikon holders are complaining about the ikon pass reservation system, ny ski blog skiers are complaining about one of the new lifts at gore, what you gonna do,lol

I'm pretty sure Vail owning Copper wouldn't fly

 

[Cobbold]

I'm pretty sure Vail owning Copper wouldn't fly

It was a hypothetical scenario

 

[Cobbold]

$35 million seems Steep... wasn’t wildcat sold for $4.5 million a decade ago??
Edit nvm
https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1517401/000104746914008395/a2221701zex-10_22.htm

35 million for both wildcat and atitash, my guess tops 10 million for wildcat, 25 million for atitash

 

[deadheadskier]

Wildcat was indeed sold for short money.

it has done over 100k skier visits in the past. It will never be a huge money maker, but it can be profitable due to how lean it can be run. Don't believe there's another 2k vertical hill in the East that can operate 100% with lifts and terrain for all abilities off just two lifts. Can run the lodge with minimal staff midweek as well. You only have to cover 60% of the terrain with a snowmaking base and groom about the same and Cat skiers will be happy and wait for mother nature to do the rest. Basically run it like Peak did with maybe just a bit more aggressive snowmaking push to start the season.

Cat skiers are used to highs and lows and typically pretty patient for the natural to fall. In a way they're not too different than MRG skiers.

You have to really F up for the regulars to be as pissed as they are this year

 

[Cobbold]

Atitash maybe goes for more than 25 million, but probably not much more, hard to tell without seeing complete financials. And you need buyers, look at jay peak granted they want way more than it’s worth, and COVID 19 most be doing a job on the financials, in the era of super passes, would atitash and wildcat survive? Need to be owned by individuals with deep pockets if you want want to compete with the big four.

 

[Cobbold]

Wildcat was indeed sold for short money.

it has done over 100k skier visits in the past. It will never be a huge money maker, but it can be profitable due to how lean it can be run. Don't believe there's another 2k vertical hill in the East that can operate 100% with lifts and terrain for all abilities off just two lifts. Can run the lodge with minimal staff midweek as well. You only have to cover 60% of the terrain with a snowmaking base and groom about the same and Cat skiers will be happy and wait for mother nature to do the rest. Basically run it like Peak did with maybe just a bit more aggressive snowmaking push to start the season.

Cat skiers are used to highs and lows and typically pretty patient for the natural to fall. In a way they're not too different than MRG skiers.

You have to really F up for the regulars to be as pissed as they are this year

My guess vail wants to run it like one of the three Tahoe areas, not sure whether it be Kirkwood, or Northstar, rustic, laidback for the more advanced skier who doesn’t want everything groomed,

 

[Cobbold]

inspite of bad issues this year in northern Nh, I have high hope that vail improves all their resorts, like I hope ikon improves their areas, and boyne improves theirs. COVID 19 knocked on vails boor , vail didn’t seek out COVID 19, and every other industry is dealing with it, hope fully it end sooner rather than later. Hopefully, a red light is flashing in Broomfield co, and Katz picks up the bat phone.

 

[Pez]

I was at mount snow sunday, they seemed to have the normal mount of trails open for a lean year situation. It hasn't really been that cold either. Sundance lodge was only open for bathrooms, no ticket window there either.

I honestly think it's more of a staffing issue. There was always kids from other countries working the season. The guys who scanned my pass were middle age no accents.

Lines were orderly. there was a single line which worked out well.

we need snow.

 

[deadheadskier]

inspite of bad issues this year in northern Nh, I have high hope that vail improves all their resorts, like I hope ikon improves their areas, and boyne improves theirs. COVID 19 knocked on vails boor , vail didn’t seek out COVID 19, and every other industry is dealing with it, hope fully it end sooner rather than later. Hopefully, a red light is flashing in Broomfield co, and Katz picks up the bat phone.

I certainly hope Vail does give the MWV areas the investment that the skiers up there want. If they do, I'll come back. No place I'd rather call home than Wildcat. For next season it will be Cannon. Many Cat friends feel the same. Can't trust Vail until they prove themselves first.

 

[Cobbold]

I certainly hope Vail does give the MWV areas the investment that the skiers up there want. If they do, I'll come back. No place I'd rather call home than Wildcat. For next season it will be Cannon. Many Cat friends feel the same. Can't trust Vail until they prove themselves first.

Time will tell, hopefully wildcat and atitash pull it together for the sake of the skiers in that part of New Hampshire. I would be shocked if the current conditions continue at these places for much longer without an intervention from Corp, but who really knows,

 

[abc]

I would be shocked if the current conditions continue at these places for much longer without an intervention from Corp, but who really knows,

Pop over to the Hunter thread and see for yourself. Mountain closed, with no explanation.

It may be as innocent as losing power. But no explanation? That's thanks to the "Corp"!

 

[thebigo]

Below is the snow report cut from the crotched website today. It is well written and informative, this is what all vail mountains should be publishing on their website everyday.

It feels like winter again and the weather this week is going to be perfect for opening additional terrain. Pluto's, Jupiter's Storm, Big Dipper and NCC are now open and the skiing/riding has been great! Mid-week laps are where it's at; enjoy plenty of space on the slopes. We're open 'til 9pm - come join the fun!

Week outlook: A park build will happen in NCC on Tuesday for opening Wednesday. Snowmaking will continue as temps permit with a goal of adding Retro, Blast Off, Eclipse, UFO, Equinox and Magnitude for the weekend.