VAIL SUCKS

[thetrailboss]

You need to add to this that Vail didn't put down enough manmade early on at Breck to help allow the long season they were promising. It was very thin when we got there down low on March 4th. Had it not snow the next 3 days, the conditions there would have been brutal. Regardless, the crowds everyday were. Was not impressed at all.
Snowbird's ops this year are an outlier and can't be compared as they do not have Tram download options this year that they normally would. Vail could have farmed into this storm cycle (again, town level reported 18 inches Saturday. I think that would go a decent way to shore up lower terrain) but they took the easy way out. But I have no doubt CO folks will still buy up the Epic in large numbers.

The Tram was an issue at Snowbird but lack of adequate staff and $$$ were bigger concerns according to many I have talked with. Most of the issue is that the former management that specialized in spring ops left. So the desire and experience to make long seasons happen have both evaporated.

 

[slatham]

I am not sure if its holding up the permitting, but per the VT Act 250 database numerous people objected to the replacement of the Stowe triple due to traffic issues. Although I could not find a direct linkage, the April announcement of paid parking and car pooling to reduce traffic flow *might* have been a result of this process.

Interestingly, the Chief of Police wrote a letter noting no impact on emergency services.

 

[SkiingInABlueDream]

I kinda wonder if the town of Stowe is basically using legalities to resist anything and everything Vail tries to do at Stowe ski area just to try to make business as difficult as possible for Vail, as a desperate reach that Vail might give up and go away.

 

[tumbler]

I kinda wonder if the town of Stowe is basically using legalities to resist anything and everything Vail tries to do at Stowe ski area just to try to make business as difficult as possible for Vail, as a desperate reach that Vail might give up and go away.

That is some of it for sure but this is permitting and approvals 101 in Vermont. It is very difficult to get anything approved in Vt.

 

[ss20]

I kinda wonder if the town of Stowe is basically using legalities to resist anything and everything Vail tries to do at Stowe ski area just to try to make business as difficult as possible for Vail, as a desperate reach that Vail might give up and go away.

Similar to Park City. That's definitely what's going on here, imo.

 

[thetrailboss]

I am not sure if its holding up the permitting, but per the VT Act 250 database numerous people objected to the replacement of the Stowe triple due to traffic issues. Although I could not find a direct linkage, the April announcement of paid parking and car pooling to reduce traffic flow *might* have been a result of this process.

Interestingly, the Chief of Police wrote a letter noting no impact on emergency services.

This, unfortunately, is how Act 250 works (or doesn't). If five people don't like something or are NIMBY that is enough to derail a project regardless of its merits. I saw this happen repeatedly during my time working in Vermont. We had one national retailer that wanted to locate a new store in an existing retail development. Most of the public wanted it. But a local merchant, who was a competitor, convinced a few of his friends to object. They made up absurd excuses, appealed, and appealed again. Lots of unnecessary legal fees before the project died.

The unintended consequence? Look at Vermont and you will see there is little to no competition in major industries. Those that do get a foothold don't want anyone else to come.

 

[ss20]

That is some of it for sure but this is permitting and approvals 101 in Vermont. It is very difficult to get anything approved in Vt.

I don't think so. It's a lift replacement. Same line, minimal tree work, easy to permit even in Vermont. There's a few every year and I can't recall any time before it's been held up

 

[ss20]

This, unfortunately, is how Act 250 works (or doesn't). If five people don't like something or are NIMBY that is enough to derail a project regardless of its merits.

It's a shame. The program started because Stratton wanted to put in 1,000s of condo units without upgrading the towns sewage plant. Now it's a way for kayakers who use a river 150 miles downstream of a mountain to stop a snowmaking expansion because it'll drop the river level .0047 inches 10 days of the year.

 

[thetrailboss]

It's a shame. The program started because Stratton wanted to put in 1,000s of condo units without upgrading the towns sewage plant. Now it's a way for kayakers who use a river 150 miles downstream of a mountain to stop a snowmaking expansion because it'll drop the river level .0047 inches 10 days of the year.

This and rampant development at Mount Snow with lots of problems.

What many don't know is that the original intent was to create (1) regulations as to development (Act 250), AND (2) a comprehensive plan as to WHAT could be developed (land use planning) for the state. Only (1) got implemented. The stick without the carrot. And a lot of people in power abuse that power and are too punitive. Lots and lots of jobs and companies have left over the decades because of the open hostility.

 

[tumbler]

I don't think so. It's a lift replacement. Same line, minimal tree work, easy to permit even in Vermont. There's a few every year and I can't recall any time before it's been held up

True that it is just a lift but a new parking lot was also denied. Everything can be viewed that a Town does not want something. You have to fight to build anything in Vt.

 

[cdskier]

I am not sure if its holding up the permitting, but per the VT Act 250 database numerous people objected to the replacement of the Stowe triple due to traffic issues. Although I could not find a direct linkage, the April announcement of paid parking and car pooling to reduce traffic flow *might* have been a result of this process.

Interestingly, the Chief of Police wrote a letter noting no impact on emergency services.

They rejected the request for a hearing for all those public comments at this point. This is outlined in the document posted 5/20 to the file: https://anrweb.vt.gov/anr/act250/Details.aspx?Num=5L1338(Altered)-39



As of 5/20 when this "decision" was issued, they were only waiting on the stormwater permit to be submitted. And it looks like that permit was submitted to the ACT 250 District Commission yesterday...so I'd expect the final permit to be issued soon assuming there are no questions/issues with the stormwater permit that was submitted.

 

[thebigo]

The unintended consequence? Look at Vermont and you will see there is little to no competition in major industries. Those that do get a foothold don't want anyone else to come.

Always been shocked by the grocery prices in Vermont. Not talking about K access road but major grocery chains in Rutland. The same product is often 25% - 33% higher than NH.

 

[drjeff]

The words "Vermont" and "business frienfly environment" are almost never uttered in the same sentence for sure.

There does come a point where the concept of preserving the charm of a region and significantly handicapping the economic ability of it's residents to advance and thrive can and do significantly compete against each other. And as such in an effort to keep some things out, many policy makers in VT also end up making it much tougher for their residents, and especially the younger residents, to economically thrive, and want to stay in VT in significant numbers.

 

[thetrailboss]

Always been shocked by the grocery prices in Vermont. Not talking about K access road but major grocery chains in Rutland. The same product is often 25% - 33% higher than NH.

Because people basically have (1) Price Chopper, or (2) Hannaford in most areas.

 

[thetrailboss]

There does come a point where the concept of preserving the charm of a region and significantly handicapping the economic ability of it's residents to advance and thrive can and do significantly compete against each other. And as such in an effort to keep some things out, many policy makers in VT also end up making it much tougher for their residents, and especially the younger residents, to economically thrive, and want to stay in VT in significant numbers.

This. My wife and I are Exhibit A for young professionals leaving. There are not enough young professionals in Vermont and the demographics are screwing things up in more ways than one.

 

[JoeB-Z]

Eastern Vermont is a retail desert. My house is in Ascutney so Claremont NH is where I shop. Market Basket is a great super market. I worked in a super market as a teenager and I can size them up in no time.

 

[cdskier]

The Stowe ACT 250 permit for the new lift has now been officially issued...

 

[FBGM]

Just saw a video from Attatash going over whatever they are doing there this summer coming from their mountain ops manager. Holy shit I’d didn’t know. You guys are fucked. 100% fucked with her overseeing Mt Opps. Go ski anywhere else.

 

[chuckstah]

Just saw a video from Attatash going over whatever they are doing there this summer coming from their mountain ops manager. Holy shit I’d didn’t know. You guys are fucked. 100% fucked with her overseeing Mt Opps. Go ski anywhere else.

Yeah, just saw it. Yikes.

 

[thebigo]

Yeah, just saw it. Yikes.

Link?