VAIL SUCKS

[machski]

The current learning Quad going in at Attitash did not require Forest Service approval since it does not cross Forest Service land (same reason Flying Yankee was strung up in the LBO era). Yes, the new Summit Chair has been approved, but in terms of footprint disturbance, it is minimal at worst.

Loon's South Peak originally was suppose to be much larger, in the 30 trail range off the top. That originally approved NFS plan was haulted by our of state lawsuits, most pretty ridiculous, and the whole thing went back under review. What we have now is what came out of that. They do have approval for the learning pod/public portal to South that would center around the lot that is the aux Escape Route lot just across the South Peak bridge. But the total expansion is a whisper of what had been planned.

As has been said, Sunday River is unique for a large resort in the East in that it is totally contained on privately owner Boyne lands. They do not have to answer to the NFS at all, just the town for build permits, etc. Blast off the top of Jordan and move that earth to reshape and grade Kansas, no problem. Blast the hell out Lower AmEx, go for it. No pesky Act 250 style crap either to deal with. Oh, and access to a ton of water.

 

[ss20]

I couldn't begin to spitball a dollar amount for something that expansive.

But what he would do:

• Significant investment in pumping (number of pumps at both Snowshed and Bear) plus the booster stations coupled with automation in the pumphouses. They have to hire a ridiculous number of pump and air operators as well as mechanics every season to keep that system going.
• Significant investment in fixed Low-E technology on core trails, moving the existing stuff to secondary trails. That also means using it if it's there. Killington even in great wet bulb at times refuses to use their fixed infrastructure that's already there. We all know how hard of a time they had staffing this year, and when you're moving gear all around the earth and back... They could cut back their diesel rental fleet considerably, if not the number of units, but the time they have them if they still wanted them to surge for the Cup.
• Significant reworking of feeds and valve systems. Many of their feeds are old and undersized, limiting the amount of water that can be delivered to any one area. Mount Snow can put 8,000 GPM basically to the summit and top feed nearly the entire place. Imagine if K could put that type of volume on any of their peaks at any one time? 48 hours and all of Snowdon (for example) is done.

How often have they made significant snowmaking investments? All of their on hill gear is 20 years old and more save a few select trails. They added Pipe Dream and Great Bear two years ago, but that was an expansion and only makes it worse. They just aren't going to be able to get the place reasonably covered until something changes. 12,000 GPM distributed very inefficiently is not enough. I hope as the K1 lodge is completed, they may pivot to some of these things. However, one has to be reasonable, that they have done other massive projects while other mountains have not.

All very very true.

You could probably spitball a more accurate percentage than I could but from my understanding 40-60% of the piping is swiss cheese and needs to be replaced.

And yeah, as I've said on here before, it could be 10 degrees 24/7 November 1-January 1 and Killington would still be unable to cover all their snowmaking terrain while places like SR, Stratton, Mount Snow, and Okemo could (and Sugarbush would probably have 3 or 4 trails covered ).

 

[Newpylong]

So what you are saying is the need additional sources of water in addition to moderenizing their plant to replace people. They have had to shut down since they lowered Woodward Resevoir too much.

Water itself isn't the problem, it's getting enough of it where it needs to go on the hill.

If they've ever had to shutdown due to lack of water (I've never heard that), that is an outlying factor. In addition to Woodward, the they have the Roaring Brook (Snowshed), Falls Brook (Bear), and the Ottauquechee (Gondola) water sources, which have all been reduced in recent years due to having Woodward. They can always withdraw more from those sources. They are permitted to rebuild the intake down off the Ottauquechee River/Skyeship base, they are supposed to be doing it this off season.

 

[Newpylong]

All very very true.

You could probably spitball a more accurate percentage than I could but from my understanding 40-60% of the piping is swiss cheese and needs to be replaced.

And yeah, as I've said on here before, it could be 10 degrees 24/7 November 1-January 1 and Killington would still be unable to cover all their snowmaking terrain while places like SR, Stratton, Mount Snow, and Okemo could (and Sugarbush would probably have 3 or 4 trails covered ).

Not that high, but a lot of the stuff at Bear is shot (Fiddle is the worst and is not serviceable). Great Eastern down to Route 4 is toast and is a problem every year. They are doing a lot of repairs up by North Ridge this year (there was a leak going into Upper East fall that shut them down last year there). On top of that, it's just the topology that does not allow them to put a high volume of water in any one area. With that much pumping capacity in the basin with appropriately sized feeds, they should be able to run: Swirl, Caper, Header, Easy Street and Timberline on Ramshead simultaneously, etc. Mount Snow in a good wet bulb is literally able to run 300 guns at once because they have a 24" feed right to the top of the mountain delivering nearly all of their water capacity. Killington does have the issue of most of their basin feeds running under base facilities, so replacement and repair is a pain. I personally would focus on adding more capacity and repairs on the Bear side first, as that terrain can be so slow to come online and is often fraught with issues.

 

[drjeff]

Sounds like, and much to the marketing department's chagrin, that Killington WOULD benefit much more operations wise with their next major capital investment once the new Lodge is done, from say 10 million in miles and miles of snowmaking pipe replacement as opposed to a new 10 million dollar lift. The general public doesn't get that, but the general public would defeinitely enjoy the benfits in snow surface quality and quantity that it would bring

 

[IceEidolon]

You've mentioned (or someone who I figured Knew Things mentioned) they're near electrical limits in at least some areas - I imagine that would limit how much additional pumping capacity they could add, but won't prevent pumphouse automation and VFDs.

Do we know what the deal with the string of Impulses on lower Superstar is?

 

[Newpylong]

Yeah there could be power limitations into the area with GMP. I know that is one reason they continue to rent a lot of air.

The 30' Impulses started as demos to replace the No Logics that were in the same place. Guess they kept them. The piles under them were nearly as tall as the towers themselves on that last push this year, far far larger than the K3000s higher up. I just wish they would do a lot more of them. In pains me to see their crews hoof around all those rats, K guns and hose all winter.

 

[IceEidolon]

I got to demo a late model Snowogic with the boost nozzle - genuinely a good gun in terms of throw and quality, far better than the 700+ psi or slush stories, but it was heavy to raise and lower, slow and complicated to start and stop, didn't tolerate any airline water or debris, and I couldn't see how you could automate 'em without a powered jack. I wouldn't wish a line of the old ones on anyone.

 

[Smellytele]

Need some solar panels or wind turbines to off set the electrical…

 

[IceEidolon]

Good luck getting Act 250 approval for enough wind turbines - and in the good ridgeline positions - to make a difference.

You inspired some back of the envelope math, though - assuming you get 25% of nameplate capacity on an average snowmaking night (any other snowmakers wanna say how often it's dead calm while you're making snow?) that's about 650 HP per 2 MW turbine. For Holiday Valley, that'd be 4x 1100 HP compressors plus about the same in pumps with all the transfer stations going? You'd need about 14 turbines on an average night, or 4 on a good and windy one. Jiminy Peak would get enough power from their 1.5 MW turbine at full chooch to run 2000+ HP of equipment, which is more than their entire compressor room draws.

 

[urungus]

FWIW, Berkshire East has a 900kw wind turbine and 500kw solar field and my understanding is that it is enough to cover their entire operation. Are there any other self-powered resorts out there ?

 

[Smellytele]

FWIW, Berkshire East has a 900kw wind turbine and 500kw solar field and my understanding is that it is enough to cover their entire operation. Are there any other self-powered resorts out there ?

The ones I know that have a wind turbine have 1. Burke and Bolton

 

[Smellytele]

Good luck getting Act 250 approval for enough wind turbines - and in the good ridgeline positions - to make a difference.

You inspired some back of the envelope math, though - assuming you get 25% of nameplate capacity on an average snowmaking night (any other snowmakers wanna say how often it's dead calm while you're making snow?) that's about 650 HP per 2 MW turbine. For Holiday Valley, that'd be 4x 1100 HP compressors plus about the same in pumps with all the transfer stations going? You'd need about 14 turbines on an average night, or 4 on a good and windy one. Jiminy Peak would get enough power from their 1.5 MW turbine at full chooch to run 2000+ HP of equipment, which is more than their entire compressor room draws.

Also not thinking to cover all the snow making just enough to add more snow making.

 

[bigbob]

Yeah there could be power limitations into the area with GMP. I know that is one reason they continue to rent a lot of air.

The 30' Impulses started as demos to replace the No Logics that were in the same place. Guess they kept them. The piles under them were nearly as tall as the towers themselves on that last push this year, far far larger than the K3000s higher up. I just wish they would do a lot more of them. In pains me to see their crews hoof around all those rats, K guns and hose all winter.

No Logic, love that. I do not see many Sno Logic equipment on other New England ski slopes. Does Powdr from Utah have some money invested in the US branch of Sno Logic? Most of the other areas have the HKD equipment lining the slopes.
Funny how VT banned billboards years ago, but has no problem allowing hay fields to be filled with solar panels!

 

[cdskier]

Funny how VT banned billboards years ago, but has no problem allowing hay fields to be filled with solar panels!

This may be the wine talking...but I have absolutely no idea what one has to do with the other.

 

[SkiNewEngland.net]

FWIW, Berkshire East has a 900kw wind turbine and 500kw solar field and my understanding is that it is enough to cover their entire operation. Are there any other self-powered resorts out there ?

On paper, but not physics. Most of Berkshire East's snowmaking occurs at night, when the solar array is not generating. When snowmaking is in full gear at night, it will easily exceed what the wind turbine can generate. The 100% self-generation claim would be accurate on an full-year basis on paper, when taking into consideration sunny spring days with many hours of daylight and little electric consumption.

 

[jaytrem]

On paper, but not physics. Most of Berkshire East's snowmaking occurs at night, when the solar array is not generating. When snowmaking is in full gear at night, it will easily exceed what the wind turbine can generate. The 100% self-generation claim would be accurate on an full-year basis on paper, when taking into consideration sunny spring days with many hours of daylight and little electric consumption.

They're hooked up to the grid, so it doesn't really matter when they generate. Not like excess gets dumped. If there happens to be excess in the area the can fill the giant battery that is Bear Swamp Reservoir.

 

[thebigo]

On paper, but not physics. Most of Berkshire East's snowmaking occurs at night, when the solar array is not generating. When snowmaking is in full gear at night, it will easily exceed what the wind turbine can generate. The 100% self-generation claim would be accurate on an full-year basis on paper, when taking into consideration sunny spring days with many hours of daylight and little electric consumption.

Which would only matter if they were not hooked up to the grid.

 

[thebigo]

They're hooked up to the grid, so it doesn't really matter when they generate. Not like excess gets dumped. If there happens to be excess in the area the can fill the giant battery that is Bear Swamp Reservoir.

Love the bear swamp mention, pumped storage is the future of US energy.

 

[IceEidolon]

Pumped storage has some of the same geographical limitations as hydroelectric, unfortunately - you need a pretty big elevation drop with space up top and space (or a huge lake) at the bottom. Plus, you're typically going to have a stressed ecosystem because the water won't stay in place. Pumped storage is good where it's viable, but not a panacea and the places you can build it are kind of limited.

Bear Creek I believe brings in a substantial amount of generation capacity for the winter, though I don't recall if that's because they can't get enough electricity (they're 99% fan guns, 1% sticks with onboard compressors) or if it's so they can run through any curtailment or outage. Of course those gensets aren't renewable either, but they're the only place I know of that can run entirely off-grid.

It would be interesting to see a resort hook up onsite renewables so they could push through a power curtailment with a compressor and a couple pumps still on, for example, or to add more transfer pump capacity at a remote location rather than running miles of new wire.