VAIL SUCKS

[thetrailboss]

Sweet lift detach at breck with dude in chair falling 13 feet

Yep. It’s Vail’s new technology to get guests onto the snow much faster. It’s pretty EPIC.

Chair Falls from High Speed Quad at Breckenridge

A quad chair detached from Breckenridge’s Peak 8 SuperConnect today as high winds buffeted the Central Rockies region. The below video shows the upbound chair came to rest just below the upper term…

liftblog.com

 

[raisingarizona]

Sweet lift detach at breck with dude in chair falling 13 feet

That dude f-d up. He should have laid there claiming of severe back pain and called a lawyer.

 

[FBGM]

That dude f-d up. He should have laid there claiming of severe back pain and called a lawyer.

Im sure a few lawyers have already reached out to him. He will get paid. And rightfully so, straight up negligence.

 

[djd66]

What about this is negligence?

 

[deadheadskier]

What about this is negligence?

Other than an act of God situation (strong unforecasted big wind gust essentially), a chairlift should never de-rope. Isn't that the minimum expectation as a skier? The mountain provides lifts that work and don't hurt you?

Now I suppose you could throw shade at the state licensing board in charge of certifying the lift as safe too.

I don't care how rare they are, these incidents should never happen other than Act of God situations. This is now twice in two years for Vail that I know of. Last year it happened at Wildcat.

In both situations the person involved in the wreck or their families should sue the shit out of both Vail and the licencing board. That's the only way to wake them up and get them to do their jobs and prevent such "accidents" in the future.

Really terrible look for the wealthiest ski company in the world to have two terrible lift accidents and a Zipline death the past two years. All could have been prevented. They happened because of cost cutting.

Vail sucks

I hope they go the way of Intrawest and implode. Both companies = profit before people. Fuck that

 

[Keelhauled]

Sunday River dropped an occupied gondola cabin. Magic dropped an empty chair. Camelback dropped an occupied chair. Those are all just the last few years and across all types of operators. Neither humans nor machines are infallible, especially not when combined. Just because Vail is big doesn't intrinsically mean that they're negligent or malicious.

 

[drjeff]

Other than an act of God situation (strong unforecasted big wind gust essentially), a chairlift should never de-rope. Isn't that the minimum expectation as a skier? The mountain provides lifts that work and don't hurt you?

Now I suppose you could throw shade at the state licensing board in charge of certifying the lift as safe too.

I don't care how rare they are, these incidents should never happen other than Act of God situations. This is now twice in two years for Vail that I know of. Last year it happened at Wildcat.

In both situations the person involved in the wreck or their families should sue the shit out of both Vail and the licencing board. That's the only way to wake them up and get them to do their jobs and prevent such "accidents" in the future.

Really terrible look for the wealthiest ski company in the world to have two terrible lift accidents and a Zipline death the past two years. All could have been prevented. They happened because of cost cutting.

Vail sucks

I hope they go the way of Intrawest and implode. Both companies = profit before people. Fuck that

So what you're essentially inferring is that in any forecasted wind gusts over say 15? 20? 25mph? NO resort should operate a chairlift out of "an abundance of caution" (I HATE that phrase more than Kusty hates crowded groomers or Trailboss hates anyrhing Vail Resorts)...

Or maybe we should all get back to where we were as a society say 10 - 15yrs ago, where some reasonable risk wasn't even thought twice about and was just a normal part of life.

A society that seeks ZERO risk in life, is frankly a society I want nothing to do with. It would be like only skiing the beginner slope, on a sunny, windless 30 degree day, while wearing full body armor and never getting above 5 mph heading downhill

 

[thetrailboss]

So what you're essentially inferring is that in any forecasted wind gusts over say 15? 20? 25mph? NO resort should operate a chairlift out of "an abundance of caution" (I HATE that phrase more than Kusty hates crowded groomers or Trailboss hates anyrhing Vail Resorts)...

???

I am not a fan of Vail, but trust me, there are folks who are MUCH more angry at Vail than I. My jokes about Katz are made in jest.

And the winds in CO were in excess of those speeds and Vail operated this lift when it clearly was not safe to do so. That's why we have wind holds. This chair derailment is pretty significant. Saying that one should assume the risk of having a chair you are riding on blow off the line is one hell of an assumption of risk and no reasonable person would ever buy that. I've read and re-read what you wrote and it appears that is what you are saying. Your other comparisons ring pretty hollow. This incident was not at all reasonable. Now your Vail defense has gone to a whole different level. Frankly this is one of the most stupid defenses I have read and I almost exclusively do defense work. Just being honest.

 

[djd66]

Other than an act of God situation (strong unforecasted big wind gust essentially), a chairlift should never de-rope. Isn't that the minimum expectation as a skier? The mountain provides lifts that work and don't hurt you?

Now I suppose you could throw shade at the state licensing board in charge of certifying the lift as safe too.

I don't care how rare they are, these incidents should never happen other than Act of God situations. This is now twice in two years for Vail that I know of. Last year it happened at Wildcat.

In both situations the person involved in the wreck or their families should sue the shit out of both Vail and the licencing board. That's the only way to wake them up and get them to do their jobs and prevent such "accidents" in the future.

Really terrible look for the wealthiest ski company in the world to have two terrible lift accidents and a Zipline death the past two years. All could have been prevented. They happened because of cost cutting.

Vail sucks

I hope they go the way of Intrawest and implode. Both companies = profit before people. Fuck that

The chair was on a wind hold when this happened. Again, what did they do that was negligent?

 

[Terry]

If it was on wind hold why was there people on it?

 

[djd66]

If it was on wind hold why was there people on it?

No idea,.. I’m just going by what I read. I’m guessing when they first opened, the wind was not that strong and then it got very gusty.

I am no Vail fanboy, but to say they were negligent is BS without having actual facts.

I hate the fact that we are such a litigious society that there are investment firms that invest in lawsuits.

 

[deadheadskier]

So what you're essentially inferring is that in any forecasted wind gusts over say 15? 20? 25mph? NO resort should operate a chairlift out of "an abundance of caution" (I HATE that phrase more than Kusty hates crowded groomers or Trailboss hates anyrhing Vail Resorts)...

Or maybe we should all get back to where we were as a society say 10 - 15yrs ago, where some reasonable risk wasn't even thought twice about and was just a normal part of life.

A society that seeks ZERO risk in life, is frankly a society I want nothing to do with. It would be like only skiing the beginner slope, on a sunny, windless 30 degree day, while wearing full body armor and never getting above 5 mph heading downhill

Oh lookie there, in comes Dr Jeff white knighting Vail. What a surprise.

15, 20 or 25mph? Hyperbole much Jeff?

No, what I'm inferring is that there appears to be a pattern forming with Vail where lack of maintenance and perhaps also a deficit in operational expertise is causing accidents. Lack of maintenance was the case with the Zipline accident. Very inexpensive parts weren't replaced on schedule there. Only a few posts prior to this discussion you have 2Planker discussing long term mountain ops people who ditched Vail at Wildcat. And what happened there? They had a lift de-rope during what was not a crazy windy day last season.

It's a troubling pattern Jeff. Especially for the most wealthy ski company on the planet. It's okay to admit that or at the very least consider it. No one's going to take away your Mt Snow number one fan status for doing so.

 

[machski]

Oh lookie there, in comes Dr Jeff white knighting Vail. What a surprise.

15, 20 or 25mph? Hyperbole much Jeff?

No, what I'm inferring is that there appears to be a pattern forming with Vail where lack of maintenance and perhaps also a deficit in operational expertise is causing accidents. Lack of maintenance was the case with the Zipline accident. Very inexpensive parts weren't replaced on schedule there. Only a few posts prior to this discussion you have 2Planker discussing long term mountain ops people who ditched Vail at Wildcat. And what happened there? They had a lift de-rope during what was not a crazy windy day last season.

It's a troubling pattern Jeff. Especially for the most wealthy ski company on the planet. It's okay to admit that or at the very least consider it. No one's going to take away your Mt Snow number one fan status for doing so.

Word is the rider on the detach chair on the Super connect was one of our pilots and is miraculously 100% ok.

The articles I have read said at the time of the incident, numerous upper mountain lifts were on wind hold but that SuperConnect was not on hold.

 

[FBGM]

Okay I have a quick min to explain this situation…

Under no circumstance should a chair or carrier ever fall or detach from the line, loaded or empty. This is cut and dry. Won’t go into the numerous safeties and reasons why, just this should never happen.

As for wind. I’ve seen 4 and 6 person lifts, empty, sustain 100+ mph winds with no failure or detach. I will say, when loaded, and you are running in wind where gusts or speeds are borderline, you have issues like this. Lift stops, loaded, during wind hold. But, you still have no reason at all that a detach from rope should happen.

The picture is hard to see. Not sure if that chair was already into top terminal? That adds another few factors in.

I’ve been saying this for years now, there will be a major and or Catastrophic lift failure at some point. Most likely resulting in loss of life and high injuries. The lift infrastructure and maintenance over the past 5-10 years is deteriorating. From a number of factors. Once this happens I suspect huge changes and impacts from state and governing boards. These are already starting but a major revamp of the system will have to happen.

Again, with this accident from just pictures and conditions known, I still don’t see any reason this is not negligence. The only outlier would be was the people on the lift bouncing/swinging doing something of that nature.

Source/Credentials for what I said - 20+ year Mountain operations manager/worker/consultant that has seen, worked, built a lot and studied the ski field. I’ve been involved in depositions, worked with lawyers and ski insurance companies.

I don’t like Vail, but this type of incident could happen anywhere - it has - and it shouldn’t. End of story.

 

[deadheadskier]

Lift infrastructure and maintenance over the past 5-10 years is deteriorating. From a number of factors. Once this happens I suspect huge changes and impacts from state and governing boards. These are already starting but a major revamp of the system will have to happen.

And during that same time period Rob Katz saw his net worth surpass $100M and Vail constantly broadcasts the hundreds of millions in cash they have to attract more investors.

They have the money to operate in a much safer fashion, but it certainly appears that litigation may be the only way to force them to do so.

 

[Ski2LiveLive2Ski]

If a loaded chair falls off a lift and I am on the jury, it is negligence - either in maintenance of the lift or the decision to operate the lifts.

And there are enough jurors that would feel that way - and the PR impact on Vail of an extended trial would be severe enough - that there is no way Vail would let this get to a jury.

If there had been a serious injury they would settle and pay millions.

With no real injury they will likely still pay something in a settlement for psychological trauma.

 

[PAabe]

Increased lift regulation and liability could put dozens and dozens of small ski areas out of business. It already has NELSAPed a lot of places.

I hope ski areas can find responsibility to maintain safe lift operations without shooting themselves in the foot by bringing on increased government oversight.

Skiing is risky business, which I hope other skiers and the government are able to recognize, but unlike many of the risks, a chair detaching is not something the individual skier can avoid - but seems to be happening more and more frequently

One statistic that would be interesting is if ski lifts are statistically more dangerous per trip or even per mile than driving in a car? I would guess not

 

[FBGM]

To follow up on lift maintenance, the biggest issue/concern I’ve seen over say the past 10 years is knowledge of employees. The veterans of the lift industry are few and far these days. And retiring and fading. There are some great young mechanics and managers. But at a resort with say 30 lifts, 4 top level mechanics and 10 greener guys, it’s hard. And this is common.

You can say “oh the pay sucks that’s why no one wants to do it” - sure. But I think the root cause is increased infrastructure, increasing older age infrastructure, high learning curves, lack of formal training in specific aspects and high pressure from “above” on getting stuff done and open quicker or at a timeline.

Is there a perfect solution to this? Maybe? What that is, probably still in the works at many places.

 

[Ski2LiveLive2Ski]

One statistic that would be interesting is if ski lifts are statistically more dangerous per trip or even per mile than driving in a car? I would guess not

Per trip or per mile is really not comparable as car trips are much longer duration than lift trips.

But I am sure vastly more skiers are injured or killed driving to and from mountains on snowy and icy roads than from lift accidents. And I'm sure that (while lower in number than car accidents) vastly more skiers are also injured or killed skiing than by lift accidents. The difference is that with driving or skiing accidents the negligence would fall on a driver/skier or (rarely) auto manufacturer or ski equipment provider.

 

[doublediamond]

Vail isn’t a ski operator. They are a marketing firm that sells you access to their areas. There’s no other explanation for how their ops are so shitty: bad grooming, anemic snowmaking, lack of lifts, no maintenance, etc.

I’m convinced anyone who likes Vail either can’t see through their veil (pun intended) or are clouded by nostalgia for 2000s era Vail out in CO. This is fundamentally not the same company. They are in a race to the bottom a la McDonalds or Walmart. You get what you pay for.

While this latest incident (Breckinridge deropement) doesn’t have to do with lack of maintenance, the negligence goes hand in hand with what can be seen elsewhere in the company.