VAIL SUCKS

[Cobbold]

I think one thing for perspective on numbers, is in the US, only about 3% of the total population are skiers/riders. That's about 10 million people.

That data was directly from the President of the NSAA just a couple of days ago when she was nice enough to answer a couple of ski industry related questions my son needed answered for a paper for his high-school English class he's currently working on.

Vail, with apparently over a million Epic's sold has about 10% of the skiing/riding population in the US on its pass...

Chris diamond in one of his books mentions a couple of people who think it’s closer to either 15 million or 20 million, so I guess the real numbers are somewhere between ten million and twenty million. Heard some ski executives including win smith of sugarbush say that new skiers numbers the last couple of years is way up. Time will tell.

 

[Cobbold]

If Attitash is a Diamond in the Rough, how do you describe Jay Peak which is already on the market?

For one thing they are asking way to much for jay peak, vail does not over pay for resorts, they paid 50 million for Stowe, can’t remember the asking price of jay but it’s north of 50 million. I think attitash and wildcat have a lot of potential that needs vail resources to bring out the that potential plus these areas are way closer to Boston than jay, jay for all practical purposes is really a Canadian ski area, Canadians south of Montreal head towards jay, north of Montreal they go to tremblant ( spelling).

 

[abc]

Chris diamond in one of his books mentions a couple of people who think it’s closer to either 15 million or 20 million, so I guess the real numbers are somewhere between ten million and twenty million. Heard some ski executives including win smith of sugarbush say that new skiers numbers the last couple of years is way up. Time will tell.

There isn't any accurate number, just estimates. How do you distinguish whether the 3 visits I made to 3 separate mountains are not from 3 different skiers?

It's more an art on how to reduce the "skier visit day" number to come up with an estimate of how many "bodies" really are there.

Granted, with season passes, that number is well known.

 

[skiberg]

i guess this is what happens when you are publicly traded. Must meet revenue and profit projections. Keep stock price stable.

I will never buy epic again.

 

[kingslug]

I doubt vail knows where jay is....

 

[skiur]

They are not making any more ski resort’s especially in the north east

Les Otten would beg to differ!

 

[Cobbold]

Les Otten would beg to differ!

It’s not a new ski area just an old one trying to make a come back, les otten is a one hit wonder, Sunday River, crashed and burned American ski co. From the sound of things in Chris diamonds book, les otten though he was the smartest guy in the room who already knew everything

 

[eatskisleep]

I am thinking they will wait another year to sell them off.

I’d love to see them sell Wildcat and Attitash off.

 

[skiberg]

Les often is the worst thing that ever happened to NE skiing. Widen all trails. Take out natural terrain variations. no double fall,lines. Straighten them, take away the character of everything. Cookie cutter trails all over the mountain. Everything looks and feels the same. Snowmaking everywhere. Lifts don’t go to the top. I hate him, legitimately hate him. Don’t know him, but hate what he did to skiing

 

[Cobbold]

Les often is the worst thing that ever happened to NE skiing. Widen all trails. Take out natural terrain variations. no double fall,lines. Straighten them, take away the character of everything. Cookie cutter trails all over the mountain. Everything looks and feels the same. Snowmaking everywhere. Lifts don’t go to the top. I hate him, legitimately hate him. Don’t know him, but hate what he did to skiing

Assuming vail and alterra survive this, assuming they do, les otten balsams will be a white elephant, high priced resort far from Boston, who with a ikon or epic pass will travel their, they will get one percenters and no one else

 

[thebigo]

All the talk about attitash skier numbers overlooks the summer business. There are significantly more customers midweek non holiday during the summer at attitash than the winter. They don't do much for weddings but there is always a good line at the ticket window and the summer attractions are not cheap.

 

[abc]

All the talk about attitash skier numbers overlooks the summer business. There are significantly more customers midweek non holiday during the summer at attitash than the winter. They don't do much for weddings but there is always a good line at the ticket window and the summer attractions are not cheap.

Question is does Vail even care?

The impression is Vail wants people to take a trip out to their resorts out west!

Summer business are walk up one time customer. Or skiers who come back in the summer. There may not be the same summer number if the winter traffic dries up due to neglect.

So a portion of the Attitash and Wildcat "regulars" swear they'll never buy another Epic pass again. If they don't buy another Epic pass, they're lose to Vail as potential trip-out-west customers.

Vail has to learn Northeast Ski business in a hurry. Majority of Northeast mountains' GM knows how to handle the random snow fall in December, especially during the holiday period. Vail never had to deal with that kind of stuff. Last year, they weren't really dictating the day-to-day operation. This is their first year. They're doing terribly in comparison with neighboring mountains in NH and NY. Vermont mountains aren't quite so bad. But since most NY/NJ skiers are hesitant to go to VT due to quarantine requirements, their overall impression of Vail owned resorts are hugely negative! Vail's grand plan of wowing the NY/NJ skier will go spectacularly wrong if this continues!

Now, we only need Vail to shut down Wildcat right after Easter! That will complete their mission of pissing off the majority of NY/NJ passholders.

 

[ss20]

Les often is the worst thing that ever happened to NE skiing. Widen all trails. Take out natural terrain variations. no double fall,lines. Straighten them, take away the character of everything. Cookie cutter trails all over the mountain. Everything looks and feels the same. Snowmaking everywhere. Lifts don’t go to the top. I hate him, legitimately hate him. Don’t know him, but hate what he did to skiing

Sheesh. Without him there'd be no Sunday River. Killington and Sugarbush would be VERY different. Attitash would still just be Attitash-proper, and a very minor player in the East. Not everywhere can or should be Magic, Castlerock, MRG, Burke, etc. Oh and in mid-April when all those places are closed you can ride a quad chair directly to the top of White Heat or Outer Limits and ride 1,200 vertical feet of bumps.

At the moment I'd rather be at Sunday River or Killington over MRG and Magic. Give me two more feet of natural and that opinion changes. But there's a time/place/purpose for well-groomed trails and awesome snowmaking power.

 

[cdskier]

Sheesh. Without him there'd be no Sunday River. Killington and Sugarbush would be VERY different. Attitash would still just be Attitash-proper, and a very minor player in the East. Not everywhere can or should be Magic, Castlerock, MRG, Burke, etc.

Yea, it is hard to say what those places would be like without Les's influence. Also hard to say I "hate" him when he did push various things forward that are important today. Although it is ironic that you bring up Castlerock considering he wanted to destroy it with snowmaking and a HS lift. Thankfully the local push-back ("More ‘Rock, less Otten") won out on that one.

 

[thetrailboss]

I am thinking they will wait another year to sell them off.

So, I feel for all of your pain. I really do. If it makes any of you feel better, we are having the worst ski season in probably at least 9 years or so.

That said, I hear the calls for Vail to put Wildcat up for sale but who, I mean who, is going to buy it? It was on the market for like 10 years before Peaks bought it. Fairbanks? Maybe. Anyone else?

Oh, wait, I know who.....and he can pair it with his other NNH resort that is STILL coming!

 

[thetrailboss]

If Attitash is a Diamond in the Rough, how do you describe Jay Peak which is already on the market?

There you go. That goes to what I was saying--if one could have Jay or Wildcat, which one would you buy? Jay is closer to Montreal, has (or had) stable business, and has (or had) a good four-season thing going.

 

[skiberg]

Bear peak at Attitash and Sunday River. Indiscernible. Cookie cutter. Les Otten ripped the soul from NE skiing. Killington, SR, the Bush existed long before him and would continue to exist without him. He sucks. He’s not a skier, never was. He’s a businessman and never understood skiers

 

[thebigo]

So, I feel for all of your pain. I really do. If it makes any of you feel better, we are having the worst ski season in probably at least 9 years or so.

That said, I hear the calls for Vail to put Wildcat up for sale but who, I mean who, is going to buy it? It was on the market for like 10 years before Peaks bought it. Fairbanks? Maybe. Anyone else?

Oh, wait, I know who.....and he can pair it with his other NNH resort that is STILL coming!

Passed the time during the drive up to north conway tonight thinking about where the three NH properties might end up if they do sell. Best I could come up with is:
Crotched -> Boyne
Wildcat -> Fairbanks
Attitash -> LBO gives up on the balsams, finds some money and gives it a go. He was the only one that ever got anything done there.

 

[eatskisleep]

Les often is the worst thing that ever happened to NE skiing. Widen all trails. Take out natural terrain variations. no double fall,lines. Straighten them, take away the character of everything. Cookie cutter trails all over the mountain. Everything looks and feels the same. Snowmaking everywhere. Lifts don’t go to the top. I hate him, legitimately hate him. Don’t know him, but hate what he did to skiing

Idk I still think Vail is worse.

 

[2Planker]

I spent 20+ years pretty close to LBO. Rode the climb & the fall.
Used to play cards weekly w/ him and spent a fair amount of time together out on Long Lake waterskiing.
100% Good Guy ! and definitely has the experience & energy to pull off The Balmsams project.