VAIL SUCKS

[thebigo]

I still say most resorts are not trying to shock you into buying a season pass, and single day ticket usually are not extreme.

comparing the four major operators day ticket at most popular eastern property with unlimited season pass indicates vail is clearly the biggest offender:

Stowe: $1004 pass, $224 day ticket - 5 day ROI
Killington: $1259, $205 day ticket - 7 day ROI
Stratton: $1359 pass, $203 day ticket - 7 day ROI
Sunday River: $1459, $159 day ticket - 10 day ROI

10 - 12 days feels about right

 

[AdironRider]

For those still here (like the end of Ferris Buehler), the below is why your "cheap skiing" is eventually not going to seem so cheap. This is the prediction I made on here almost a decade ago in a post about how Vail Resorts isn't "visionary" like people were saying, but rather it is simply another example of a publicly traded roll-up company that can last for maybe 10 to 15 years. As well as a prediction that ancillary revenue (READ: increased costs for you) will come from seemingly everywhere & anywhere.

View attachment 62982

What does the above really mean?

It means that almost ALL the juice has been squeezed from the biggest lemon in Vail's possession. To be sure, Vail owns many more lemons which can be squeezed, but the juice in those additional lemons will not yield the same volume of "juice" as the EPIC Pass lemon. Look for food price increases, parking price increases, rental price increases, lesson price increases, merchandise price increases, and new charges for things you never used to pay for at Vail resorts over the next few years (will free summer lift rides go away?). Additional lemons must be squeezed, because the Golden Goose of lemons is almost out of juice. And do keep in mind, all of these poor results Vail is currently experiencing are occurring at a time of economic expansion, rather than in a recessionary environment.

Tick tok, tick tok.

View attachment 62983

Dude, you have been playing the same record for a decade. I know you want to say you are always correct, but for 10 years you've been wrong.

Like with most bears, a broken clock is right twice a day. I would agree overall that equities are headed for a bit of a bumpy ride over the next year or so. Funny thing though, the US market as whole is still up almost 10% a year despite numerous downturns including the great depression.

Now lets zoom in a little closer Vail itself is sitting on close to a billion just in cash. Nevermind revenue is still up 1% YOY. Even during the great recession, skier visits only dropped 7.4%.

Now lets zoom in even further. You already bought your pass and just nutted up for ski school. There are way more people just like you. You know what drove revenue for Vail last recession? The Epic Pass. During tough economic times people do chase value, and you can't argue an Epic Pass isn't a good value compared to any other competing product.

 

[jaytrem]

comparing the four major operators day ticket at most popular eastern property with unlimited season pass indicates vail is clearly the biggest offender:

Stowe: $1004 pass, $224 day ticket - 5 day ROI
Killington: $1259, $205 day ticket - 7 day ROI
Stratton: $1359 pass, $203 day ticket - 7 day ROI
Sunday River: $1459, $159 day ticket - 10 day ROI

10 - 12 days feels about right

Good info, Threecy does a nice job on his website tracking stuff like that over the years. Berkshire East as an example...

Berkshire East Mountain Resort History - Massachusetts - NewEnglandSkiHistory.com

www.newenglandskihistory.com

Of course day of week, holidays, discounts, etc, can really change the ROI.

 

[urungus]

Good info, Threecy does a nice job on his website tracking stuff like that over the years. Berkshire East as an example...

Berkshire East Mountain Resort History - Massachusetts - NewEnglandSkiHistory.com

www.newenglandskihistory.com

Of course day of week, holidays, discounts, etc, can really change the ROI.

Something is off there … I paid $549 for my Berkshire East summit pass last year, not $774. Maybe they are showing the final, highest price if you bought your pass after the start of the season ?

 

[thetrailboss]

That's fine, but your initial comment was "most resorts". That's what I disagree with. Market share doesn't matter when we're talking about "most resorts". I still say most resorts are not trying to shock you into buying a season pass, and single day ticket usually are not extreme.

It must be summer because you are really trying hard to disagree. Marketshare does matter. And the groups I listed control north of 60% of the skiing/riding market. So I am glad that you skied at a small Mom and Pop place. That's nice. You get a gold star.

 

[cdskier]

Something is off there … I paid $549 for my Berkshire East summit pass last year, not $774. Maybe they are showing the final, highest price if you bought your pass after the start of the season ?

Yes...that is likely what they show. The prices are always higher on that site than what I paid as well at the resorts I had a pass.

 

[bigbob]

Cannon Senior midweek pass: $42.00, 0.6 days ROI compared to an out of state senior.

 

[jaytrem]

It must be summer because you are really trying hard to disagree. Marketshare does matter. And the groups I listed control north of 60% of the skiing/riding market. So I am glad that you skied at a small Mom and Pop place. That's nice. You get a gold star.

We have endless winter in NJ, I skied this weekend. So it must be you who is in a disagreeable mood. Perhaps more trips to Discovery and less Alterra might do you some good. You used to be so sweet, don't let Alterra change you.

Anyway, this is the quote I disagree with, and you mention nothing about marketshare. Aren't you a lawyer? You should know accuracy matters.

"Except the fact that most of the resorts are using this strategy to push folks to passes."

I suspect the ROI for a pass at most resorts is over 10 days. That would be double compared to the Stowe example. So in my opinion, that's not most places strategy. Maybe I'm wrong, doesn't really matter. Thanks for the gold star, I'll put it on my Brattleboro Ski Hill ticket!

 

[Quietman]

comparing the four major operators day ticket at most popular eastern property with unlimited season pass indicates vail is clearly the biggest offender:

Stowe: $1004 pass, $224 day ticket - 5 day ROI
Killington: $1259, $205 day ticket - 7 day ROI
Stratton: $1359 pass, $203 day ticket - 7 day ROI
Sunday River: $1459, $159 day ticket - 10 day ROI

10 - 12 days feels about right

And then on the other end of the equation(non-major area), Mt Abram has a $599 pass, and day tickets are $39 - 15+ day ROI.

 

[thetrailboss]

We have endless winter in NJ, I skied this weekend. So it must be you who is in a disagreeable mood. Perhaps more trips to Discovery and less Alterra might do you some good. You used to be so sweet, don't let Alterra change you.

Anyway, this is the quote I disagree with, and you mention nothing about marketshare. Aren't you a lawyer? You should know accuracy matters.

"Except the fact that most of the resorts are using this strategy to push folks to passes."

I suspect the ROI for a pass at most resorts is over 10 days. That would be double compared to the Stowe example. So in my opinion, that's not most places strategy. Maybe I'm wrong, doesn't really matter. Thanks for the gold star, I'll put it on my Brattleboro Ski Hill ticket!

I’m just coming back from an amazing weekend and Dead concert. So I’m fine. I also provided the numbers that back up what I am saying and you just continued. And in the context of this site, we have rules and one of them is no trolling. That’s what I’m seeing since you’re arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

[ThatGuy]

The places that are Vail and Alterra run are the destinations 90% of people want to ski. Most of the areas they don’t coñtrol are not on the same level as their options. Obviously theres some outliers (MRG is a good example) but the majority of world class skiing destinations in the US are on one of those two passes.

 

[AdironRider]

Jesus Christ TB, people disagreeing with you is not trolling.

But you’ll soon resort to insulting people’s livelihoods and editing their posts because you have nothing better to do.

 

[cdskier]

Seriously...how the hell is someone calling you out for saying the wrong thing trolling? "Most resorts" is very different from "most market-share". That's not simply even arguing over "semantics".

 

[jimmywilson69]

Summer Summer Summer TIME

SUMMER TIME

 

[jaytrem]

Jesus Christ TB, people disagreeing with you is not trolling.

But you’ll soon resort to insulting people’s livelihoods and editing their posts because you have nothing better to do.

But is this trolling...

"So I am glad that you skied at a small Mom and Pop place. That's nice. You get a gold star. "

 

[jaytrem]

Summer Summer Summer TIME

SUMMER TIME

There is no Summertime!

 

[jaytrem]

At any rate, I do find the discussion to be interesting. I'm happy to hear other's thoughts on this subject.

"The places that are Vail and Alterra run are the destinations 90% of people want to ski. Most of the areas they don’t coñtrol are not on the same level as their options. Obviously theres some outliers (MRG is a good example) but the majority of world class skiing destinations in the US are on one of those two passes."

I agree, but a lot of people don't have the money it takes to get to these places. So they're "stuck" skiing places closer to home. As far as I can tell, most of those places have reasonably priced day tickets. Thus they're not trying to shock people into buying a season pass. In the US it looks like 75ish out of 500ish areas are on Epic/Ikon, one in every 6.66. Coincidence, I don't think so!

Another interesting company is MCP. Their dynamic pricing is all over the place. In Arizona they had walkup tickets over $300 on peak days, other days you can ski for under $40. Two years ago I skied Willamette for $14 midweek. What's their goal? Is it more to shock you into buying a pass if you wan to ski peak days, or is it more evening out the crowds. Crazy variations though. Vail pricing is much flatter.

 

[deadheadskier]

I've reached the point where I'm actually cheering Vail on to be successful with their model and it stays largely the same. As long as they continue to offer a good deal on Epic Day passes so I can pick my spots for a couple of days at Wildcat, I'm fine with the cheap season passes to drive the masses towards the McMajor Ski Resorts.

I'm content with my Gunstock + Indy + 2 Epic day pass strategy over wishfully hoping Wildcat goes back to what it once was. It's never gonna happen. Might as well have Vail draw a good amount of crowds away from where I prefer hanging these days.

 

[djd66]

And in the context of this site, we have rules and one of them is no trolling.

This is almost as funny as one of those Rob Katz memes

oops, this may be trolling

 

[jimmywilson69]

There is no Summertime!

View attachment 62995

I may be hitting that up next Tuesday.