VAIL SUCKS

[ThatGuy]

Of course they conveniently end it right before the union has to start paying out. Hopefully that Gofundme gets distributed correctly.
Now we can resume normal operations and get some more stuff open.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Of course they conveniently end it right before the union has to start paying out.

Isn't that a coincidence?!?!

If you figure 170 people x $300 per week = $51,000 per week the Union would be on the hook for back-of-the-envelope math.

Now we can resume normal operations and get some more stuff open.

Near everything I imagine. Probably not Super Condor or Jupiter yet, but I'm thinking everything else?

 

[Cheetah440]

I think you misunderstand what a brand is and does. A brand is a promise consistently delivered. When you break that promise, you lose trust and equity and people stop buying your shit. Similarly, your protestations about "value" aren't compelling to me b/c there are two sides to the value equation - what I'm paying vs. what I'm getting. Vail isn't demonstrating to their current/prospective customers that they will consistently deliver the value they are paying for. I'm happy to put my money where my mouth is and place a friendly wager (or donation to a charity of your choosing) that their pass volumes will be lower next season by greater than the 2% decline seen this year. The only way they avert that is by slashing unit process to get the perceived value equation in balance, which is really just a death spiral for them.

Duopoly. Vail doesn’t care. They are a buffet, all you can eat!!! Where you gonna ski when they own em all and the pass is dirt cheap. It’s the same reason you buy cheap Chinese shit, or eat the buffet. because it’s cheap and the alternatives aren’t available or way too expensive.
This is why they bought Sunapee and Crotched. What are you gonna do ski Pats for the same price as 70!!! And you get Stowe and Okemo for free!!!!! Or you can pay more for an Ikon pass and go understand what duo means.

 

[deadheadskier]

Not everyone thinks like that. Some would prefer to pay more for quality operations. I pay more for Gunstock+ Indy than I did for Epic because the operations and skiing experiences are way better.

 

[jimmywilson69]

The mid-Atlantic folks who live near the big cities really don't have a choice like those in New England, and Vail knows this. They've known for many years before buying those ski areas how many potential pass holders they had.

I live 4.5 miles from Roundtop, I have no choice. I drove 2 hours to blue and thought wow this really sucks ! Thankfully I agree with PAabe

I will say I was pleasantly surprised how normal Roundtop seemed compared to chaos elsewhere

 

[trackbiker]

Yes there was a 2% decline in unit sales, but revenue was up 4% due to price increases.

Those points are red herrings. Mine is that for most average skiers and riders it’s the rock bottom price and perceived value that matters most. Not gripes about the strike or operational issues. Vail has understood that for years and has been skimping on operations, especially in the east, and has not seen any significant punishment from the marketplace.

If I recall correctly, Vail changed they way they counted "Pass Sales" last year. They used to just count annual pass sales but last year they started counting presold "day passes" in the total. I (regretfully) pre-bought a two day pass for an early December trip so I could ski with friends that was likely counted in the total that in the past would not have been. That probably partially explains how while "Pass Sales" were down, revenue was up.

 

[catskillman]

Thoughts @Tin Woodsman? Is there a Sundance ski resort in "the midwest or somewhere", I'm not aware of?
View attachment 64199

Sundance is in Utah - owned by Robert Redford at some point. GREAT mountain, unique cabins to stay inn, great bar...totally empty when I was there

 

[Cheetah440]

Not everyone thinks like that. Some would prefer to pay more for quality operations. I pay more for Gunstock+ Indy than I did for Epic because the operations and skiing experiences are way better.

Of course not, but the number La don’t lie. You are an outlier, by a lot. I keep a Ragged pass even though to ski Sugarbush I need Ikon. Don’t like it but do it, Ikon sucks too. But will always support Ragged because Vail sucks and will never ski one of their resorts again ever. The fact they bought Sunapee and crotched was it, they went after the feeders, they want to bankrupt the Pats, the Raggeds, the gunstocks. We either support these places or they are gone, and once gone the rarely come back. And then enjoy your $2,000 epic pass.

 

[deadheadskier]

Of course not, but the number La don’t lie. You are an outlier, by a lot. I keep a Ragged pass even though to ski Sugarbush I need Ikon. Don’t like it but do it, Ikon sucks too. But will always support Ragged because Vail sucks and will never ski one of their resorts again ever. The fact they bought Sunapee and crotched was it, they went after the feeders, they want to bankrupt the Pats, the Raggeds, the gunstocks. We either support these places or they are gone, and once gone the rarely come back. And then enjoy your $2,000 epic pass.

I don't see any world where Vail puts Pat's, Ragged or Gunstock out of business. In fact, I would say Vail has been great for all of those mountains. They're all doing better than ever due to people leaving Vail. I ski Gunstock every Sunday and meet a lot of Vail refugees. I race at Pat's on Wednesday nights. Same thing. If Ragged could ever get their act together on snowmaking and on par with Pat's and Gunstock, they could steal significant market share from Sunapee and Crotched.

 

[thebigo]

Of course not, but the number La don’t lie. You are an outlier, by a lot. I keep a Ragged pass even though to ski Sugarbush I need Ikon. Don’t like it but do it, Ikon sucks too. But will always support Ragged because Vail sucks and will never ski one of their resorts again ever. The fact they bought Sunapee and crotched was it, they went after the feeders, they want to bankrupt the Pats, the Raggeds, the gunstocks. We either support these places or they are gone, and once gone the rarely come back. And then enjoy your $2,000 epic pass.

Vail did not seek out Sunapee, Crotched or anywhere in NH for that matter. Vail operates Crotched because they wanted Snow and Hunter. Vail operates Sunapee because they wanted Okemo.

 

[AdironRider]

Pats does gangbusters business and is run extremely well. They also have a fantastic location. If anything, they would be an acquisition target.

 

[kingslug]

Of course they conveniently end it right before the union has to start paying out. Hopefully that Gofundme gets distributed correctly.
Now we can resume normal operations and get some more stuff open.

Let the bombing begin!

 

[Cheetah440]

I don't see any world where Vail puts Pat's, Ragged or Gunstock out of business. In fact, I would say Vail has been great for all of those mountains. They're all doing better than ever due to people leaving Vail. I ski Gunstock every Sunday and meet a lot of Vail refugees. I race at Pat's on Wednesday nights. Same thing. If Ragged could ever get their act together on snowmaking and on par with Pat's and Gunstock, they could steal significant market share from Sunapee and Crotched.

I don’t see it now, but 5yrs ago when the epic first bought them ragged and gunstock and Pats were not nearly as crowded. Everyone bought one. Everyone. And these places can’t take 2 down years, it’s a tough business. Vail isn’t operating for the good of skiing, news flash.
Not sure what you’re talking about wrg to snowmaking. Ragged has incredible snowmaking and skis well into April because of it. When you dump 6 skiers at the top every 20 seconds for 6hrs, there isn’t a mountain around that holds up. Pats has old slow chairs and a bunch of them. And that’s a great thing actually. There’s little differentiation between them all regarding snowmaking, ymmv depending on when you ski. The diff is Ragged has some truly class terrain when they have snow, pats doesn’t and Gunstock really doesn’t. Although I could lap Hurricane all day after a dump. I love Pats, it’s fantastic. I’d trade all of Gunstoxk for Hurricane alone.

 

[machski]

I don’t see it now, but 5yrs ago when the epic first bought them ragged and gunstock and Pats were not nearly as crowded. Everyone bought one. Everyone. And these places can’t take 2 down years, it’s a tough business. Vail isn’t operating for the good of skiing, news flash.
Not sure what you’re talking about wrg to snowmaking. Ragged has incredible snowmaking and skis well into April because of it. When you dump 6 skiers at the top every 20 seconds for 6hrs, there isn’t a mountain around that holds up. Pats has old slow chairs and a bunch of them. And that’s a great thing actually. There’s little differentiation between them all regarding snowmaking, ymmv depending on when you ski. The diff is Ragged has some truly class terrain when they have snow, pats doesn’t and Gunstock really doesn’t. Although I could lap Hurricane all day after a dump. I love Pats, it’s fantastic. I’d trade all of Gunstoxk for Hurricane alone.

I think the real debate on Ragged's snowmaking system is more about how management chooses to wield it than how powerful it is. As in, they don't seem to expand terrain at a rate associated with a powerful system elsewhere.

 

[AdironRider]

I think Cheetah thinks if he blows enough smoke up Ragged's ass he might get lucky.

They close the first weekend in April, and average well below 100" (onthesnow.com has them at 83" based on resort marketing totals, NOAA has Andover and Danbury more like 65-70") for reference.

I still like the joint. For what they have to deal with, they have a decent operation. Doesn't change their location is poor, and the weather there is not super conducive to ski conditions. Its a nice change of pace that I get reciprocal access to via my Jay pass. Its great as my 4 year old can ski off both chairs at this point.

 

[BenedictGomez]

I would say Vail has been great for all of those mountains.

I think so too, but for a different reason.

Vail artificially raising their lift ticket prices stratospherically, allowed others to raise their lift ticket prices substantially.

 

[Cheetah440]

I think the real debate on Ragged's snowmaking system is more about how management chooses to wield it than how powerful it is. As in, they don't seem to expand terrain at a rate associated with a powerful system elsewhere.

Fair point. I’ve been there the last 7yrs but the last 2 mostly at Sugarbush. They open trails in the exact same order, never deviate. And the do it in a way so they don’t ever go back. They lay down a massive base and move on. I don’t know anything about their system, how powerful it is or isn’t.

 

[Cheetah440]

I think Cheetah thinks if he blows enough smoke up Ragged's ass he might get lucky.

They close the first weekend in April, and average well below 100" (onthesnow.com has them at 83" based on resort marketing totals, NOAA has Andover and Danbury more like 65-70") for reference.

I still like the joint. For what they have to deal with, they have a decent operation. Doesn't change their location is poor, and the weather there is not super conducive to ski conditions. It’s a nice change of pace that I get reciprocal access to via my Jay pass. It’s great as my 4 year old can ski off both chairs at this point.

It’s superior to all the others around, Sunapee, Gunstock, Pats, even Loon IMO, but not enough for most people to make a decision to pick one over the other. That’s the issue. It’s not lack of snow, Sunapee doesn’t get more snow, neither does Gunstock or Pats. But you aren’t going to go outbid your way really for any of them. The thing with Ragged is natural terrain when they have snow, sets them apart. Otherwise just skiing groomers, groomers are all the same. Sunapee groomers are probably better actually.

 

[deadheadskier]

I don’t see it now, but 5yrs ago when the epic first bought them ragged and gunstock and Pats were not nearly as crowded. Everyone bought one. Everyone. And these places can’t take 2 down years, it’s a tough business. Vail isn’t operating for the good of skiing, news flash.
Not sure what you’re talking about wrg to snowmaking. Ragged has incredible snowmaking and skis well into April because of it. When you dump 6 skiers at the top every 20 seconds for 6hrs, there isn’t a mountain around that holds up. Pats has old slow chairs and a bunch of them. And that’s a great thing actually. There’s little differentiation between them all regarding snowmaking, ymmv depending on when you ski. The diff is Ragged has some truly class terrain when they have snow, pats doesn’t and Gunstock really doesn’t. Although I could lap Hurricane all day after a dump. I love Pats, it’s fantastic. I’d trade all of Gunstoxk for Hurricane alone.

Yeah, sorry, but Ragged's system or how it's deployed is nowhere near as strong as Pat's or Gunstock. Not even close.

I had a pass to Ragged 2009-2011. I left for Gunstock for 2011-12 because I got frustrated with how slow expansion was at Ragged. Then left Gunstock for Peak because they recently bought Cat.

Gunstock expansion speed was world's better then and still is today. I was shocked how little terrain Ragged had open in comparison to Gunstock when I visited with my kids on 12/29. And no, it's not because they blow appreciably deeper. When I left Vail, I had considered Ragged plus Indy, but I'm happy with my selection of Gunstock instead because of snowmaking.

No argument that Ragged has some killer trees and some other cool trails like Sweepstakes. Doesn't matter when you only get 100" of snow a year. Whaleback has killer natural terrain too, but like Ragged, it's just not open enough.

In New England, other than resorts in VT from Killington on North, snowmaking is for certain what matters most to me followed by how crowded the areas are. Third would be terrain. Fourth cost.

Ragged would need to catch up to Gunstock for me to ever consider change, but I doubt I would. Gunstock has vastly superior groomed runs than Ragged. They have more of them, they are longer, and many have more character. On a powder day, I'll take Ragged 10/10 over Gunstock. Those are simply too rare in southern NH to factor into my pass buying decision.

 

[millerm277]

Not sure what you’re talking about wrg to snowmaking. Ragged has incredible snowmaking and skis well into April because of it. When you dump 6 skiers at the top every 20 seconds for 6hrs, there isn’t a mountain around that holds up. Pats has old slow chairs and a bunch of them. And that’s a great thing actually. There’s little differentiation between them all regarding snowmaking, ymmv depending on when you ski. The diff is Ragged has some truly class terrain when they have snow, pats doesn’t and Gunstock really doesn’t. Although I could lap Hurricane all day after a dump. I love Pats, it’s fantastic. I’d trade all of Gunstoxk for Hurricane alone.

Fair point. I’ve been there the last 7yrs but the last 2 mostly at Sugarbush. They open trails in the exact same order, never deviate. And the do it in a way so they don’t ever go back. They lay down a massive base and move on. I don’t know anything about their system, how powerful it is or isn’t.

I mean, we're a week into January right now and I'm looking at their trail report. For non-beginner terrain, what is currently open is basically:

1 T2B intermediate run off of each lift, and the one off the 6 is also a terrain park and presumably going to be less fun to ski.

The current terrain offering looks nice for a beginner, sure. But for everyone else I don't see how you'd enjoy spending a day or even half a day there with that.

Pats is 100% open, and Gunstock is also offering far more variety.

I have an Indy Pass and was considering Ragged last weekend - lack of enough remotely interesting to ski that's open is why I didn't go.