VAIL SUCKS

[AdironRider]

Late march lol? Yeah you clearly don't know shit about that mtn other than plugging numbers and it shows.

You would think just with being tied to the largest ski pass in the world the skier visits would jump but that's not the case because the core base left.

50k a year visits is the business reality, and that is the last year under Peak who apparently you think ran it better (Vail isn't reporting annual visits). The core base was gone long before Vail and if you want it to continue being a viable business without Vail backing them its going to require some operational changes. We (as in AZ) are not the ski market, mountains lose money on us.

 

[snoseek]

Peak sucked too. Less than vail but they sucked. Wildcat could use a group that cares and knows the place without expecting a huge return but break even or bank a little. It would take vail folding for that to happen which many are hoping for.

 

[thebigo]

Had the peak pass for a bunch of years and dont remember being disappointed with their operation of wildcat in the later years. My yearly complaint was they went weekends only for NH April vacation week but that is laughable compared to closing first week of april. six month season last year peak ran the place, vail is down to four months.

 

[AdironRider]

Peak sucked too. Less than vail but they sucked. Wildcat could use a group that cares and knows the place without expecting a huge return but break even or bank a little. It would take vail folding for that to happen which many are hoping for.

I wish you luck in that quest. The mountains that do operate that way (as in not driven by profit) are either owned by College's (Midd / Dartmouth) or have a wealthy benefactor backstopping them (Whaleback / and sometimes Burke).

I really enjoy the experience at the College owned places but have some major gripes with Whaleback / Burke. No matter what though, you aren't getting a six month season with that mindset of "just breaking even". The problem is all the stars would have to align perfectly, which almost never happens when you are reliant on weather.

 

[drjeff]

The challenges that Wildcat has faced, and will continue to face, regardless of who owns them, that have to be considered.

#1 Snowmaking water supply and more importantly the ability to vastly expand their water supply so that the snowmaking system, even when running properly, can be expanded to meet the modern demands for snowmaking coverage with what are often shorter windows for making snow.... Being fully on US Forest service land and the permitting that would need to be obtained, complicates this need to get more water and more water storage capacity. Even when Peak made the (forced) repairs/upgrades, now probably 6 or 7 (or maybe more) years ago, it's not like they greatly expaned overall pumping capacity and/or trails covered, both of which are currently low by industrry standards, forcing them, even in a "good" year, even if they utilized their current system more, to have to rely on Mother Nature quite a bit. That strategy worked decades ago. Not so reliable now

#2 Lifts. They have an old fleet that isn;t getting any younger, and as we see/read about in their snow reports, needs more and more work and likely probably well into the 8 figures range of replacement/serious upgrades in the near future

Those 2 things, if done, would be a great thing. Given how Vail has chosen to (hardly) market their Mount Washington Valley area resorts very much since they acquired them back in 2019 (if I recall the year correctly, it's likely going to take a paradigm shift in the vision that the corporate board in Broomfield has had, for that to happen. Even if they chose to sell off Wildcat, you then would need to have an investor(s) will to spend probably 15 to 20 million in infratsructure upgrades in their 1st few years of ownership before they even really start addressing how to market the ski area to the masses to greatly build thei annual skier/rider visits to cover their costs, let alone make a few $$

Definitely a difficult situation for a ski area with a great history and terrain, that has suffered from now decades of "deferred maintenance" and other logistical challenges under ASC, Peak and now Vail ownership

 

[sull1102]

The way Vail has handled the North Conway area is something that should truly be studied in business schools for a perfect example of what not to do. Attitash used to be jamming on summer weekends, water slides, alpine slide/mountain coaster, early downhill mountain biking were always very busy and super popular. Wildcat had the rather unique in these parts summer only gondi skyrides that you would see billboards for the whole last half of Route 16. I will never understand how a company with so much theoretical talent in the offices looked at "America's best ski town" and said yeah but what if we ripped out everything and did basically nothing for five years.

 

[deadheadskier]

50k a year visits is the business reality, and that is the last year under Peak

Link to the skiers visit data at Wildcat for the final five years under Peak? You have referenced it many times, but haven't shown where you are getting those numbers from. New England ski history only shows through 15-16. They get their data from Ski NH and I seem to recall Peak leaving that association at one point. 18-19 was the final year Peak owned Wildcat. I'd like to see that information.


Separately, why aren't you ripping Vails decision to operate Attitash next weekend? You do realize it costs at least double the overhead at minimum to run vs Wildcat? That's what made it an easy argument for the old GM at WC to stay open late with Peak. They could run the place completely bare bones. 1 lift, a few ski patrol and just a few bar staff and customer service people.

 

[thetrailboss]

The way Vail has handled the North Conway area is something that should truly be studied in business schools for a perfect example of what not to do. Attitash used to be jamming on summer weekends, water slides, alpine slide/mountain coaster, early downhill mountain biking were always very busy and super popular. Wildcat had the rather unique in these parts summer only gondi skyrides that you would see billboards for the whole last half of Route 16. I will never understand how a company with so much theoretical talent in the offices looked at "America's best ski town" and said yeah but what if we ripped out everything and did basically nothing for five years.

I agree. Vail is looking at the macro level, not the micro level.

 

[deadheadskier]

The challenges that Wildcat has faced, and will continue to face, regardless of who owns them, that have to be considered.

#1 Snowmaking water supply and more importantly the ability to vastly expand their water supply so that the snowmaking system, even when running properly, can be expanded to meet the modern demands for snowmaking coverage with what are often shorter windows for making snow.... Being fully on US Forest service land and the permitting that would need to be obtained, complicates this need to get more water and more water storage capacity. Even when Peak made the (forced) repairs/upgrades, now probably 6 or 7 (or maybe more) years ago, it's not like they greatly expaned overall pumping capacity and/or trails covered, both of which are currently low by industrry standards, forcing them, even in a "good" year, even if they utilized their current system more, to have to rely on Mother Nature quite a bit. That strategy worked decades ago. Not so reliable now

Where are you getting your information or are you just speculating?

You do know their system has withdrawal permits that can refill the pond from empty all winter in 24-48 hours. The only time it's an issue is when it's super cold, slowing the river flows. This information was told to me directly from their former GM as well as the MTN ops manager.

I don't disagree that expanding storage would help a lot and while it might be difficult to get approved being on USFS land, has Vail even inquired about it? I doubt it.

Fact is that following the upgrade, Peak had the main 3 TTb routes plus the beginner area open for Xmas week every year. I don't think Lynx got open this year until late January.

It's not a water issue. It's an effort issue.

 

[AdironRider]

It's not a water issue. It's an effort issue.

If you disagree with something you just call it bullshit, but water was 100% a problem this year (and in general for Wildcat) and not unique to Wildcat either.

Just because they are permitted to fill the pond every 48 hours doesn't mean they can. It basically didn't rain for three months before ski season, then when it did for a 48 hour period before getting cold Wildcat had nowhere to store it. Again, infrastructure problems. Then you act like its a cake walk to suddenly increase water storage within a national forest. Maybe it was in the 70s when then built their tiny ass pond, but its a major lift now.

 

[deadheadskier]

If you disagree with something you just call it bullshit, but water was 100% a problem this year (and in general for Wildcat) and not unique to Wildcat either.

Just because they are permitted to fill the pond every 48 hours doesn't mean they can. It basically didn't rain for three months before ski season, then when it did for a 48 hour period before getting cold Wildcat had nowhere to store it. Again, infrastructure problems. Then you act like its a cake walk to suddenly increase water storage within a national forest. Maybe it was in the 70s when then built their tiny ass pond, but its a major lift now.

In terms of my skier visit numbers, I get that from SkiNH, like I told you already. That isn't free so feel free to buy it yourself.

I didn't realize we've been in a drought every single year Vail has owned the place. Is that why every year they've had less terrain available for the holiday week than Peak got open?

Share your link to the numbers. I would like to see them. Unless he's been slacking, Jeremy publishes that data to his NESH website. The data stops on there for Wildcat at the 2015-2016 season.

 

[doublediamond]

With respect to lifts, The HSQ and Tomcat are fine. The two Riblets need to go.

In an ideal world a beginner friendly HSQ (though a FGQ is certainly sufficient) replaces Bobcat on a new alignment to unload skiers’ left of Wild Kitten so the tunnel isn’t needed. When racing is happening requiring trail closure in that area, everything else can be reached by Tomcat or the summit HSQ.

Paired with this is a reroute/regrade of the final pitch of Wild Kitten. The trail is so mellow then it turns into a moderate blue. Fix that pitch and it’s ideal progression terrain.

Snowcat needs to go as well as it is ancient (and been broken all year). There’s got to be something to do with the cross traffic issue of people returning to the base intersecting with/crossing those on the bunny slope. Perhaps a Killington-esque tunnel for those crossing back to the main base, or a movement of the load point of the Snowcat to above the crossover, which necessitates an additional carpet.

And finally a second lift to the summit would be ideal for wind hold days. Though Vail likes to close the mountain at far slower wind speeds than past operators.

- - -

With respect to snowmaking it’s my understanding the quantity of water isn’t the issue but that the pond freezes too early in the season. The pond is separate from the stream so they should be able to install bubblers to keep the water circulating and thus stopping freezing.

I don’t think capacity is an issue considering they’d open T2B on Lynx before other areas in the state even opened.

It is my understanding Peak went aggressive early with snowmaking was so that they could use water before the pond froze.

But if there really is a water quantity problem, then there’s plenty of room around the current pond for pond expansion and/or a second pond.

 

[deadheadskier]

There's so much real estate where Wild Kitten crosses the snow Cat area that I don't see a need for a tunnel or any changes really. Even on the busiest of days, it's not really a traffic problem that would require investment.

As for Bobcat, I think the easiest move is to just extend it up another couple hundred feet to basically where it would hit Middle Wildcat. See picture below. There's already a seldom used connector / work trail in the area of this new suggested terminus that people could use to get over to Middle Catapult, you'd make the Copy Cat lift line trail about twice as long to have a cool bump run on that side of the hill, you'd be high enough to catch the grade over to Wild Kitten and you'd be able to segregate off all of Bobcat for racing when needed.

 

[doublediamond]

Problem is, if the goal is to make it easier for beginners to get to Wild Kitten, extending the Bobcat Triple to Middle Wildcat is not the way. The pitch there is too steep with too much traffic.

 

[deadheadskier]

Good point

 

[raisingarizona]

There's so much real estate where Wild Kitten crosses the snow Cat area that I don't see a need for a tunnel or any changes really. Even on the busiest of days, it's not really a traffic problem that would require investment.

As for Bobcat, I think the easiest move is to just extend it up another couple hundred feet to basically where it would hit Middle Wildcat. See picture below. There's already a seldom used connector / work trail in the area of this new suggested terminus that people could use to get over to Middle Catapult, you'd make the Copy Cat lift line trail about twice as long to have a cool bump run on that side of the hill, you'd be high enough to catch the grade over to Wild Kitten and you'd be able to segregate off all of Bobcat for racing when needed.


View attachment 65722

I've never skied there but it's a really beautiful looking old school New England ski area. The runs aren't too wide and they hug the contours complimenting the natural curves of the mountain. Or at least it looks that way. The mountain seems to roll and ungulate in a way that makes for entertaining and fun terrain to ski. I'm bummed I've never had the opportunity to experience it.

 

[2Planker]

I've never skied there but it's a really beautiful looking old school New England ski area. The runs aren't too wide and they hug the contours complimenting the natural curves of the mountain. Or at least it looks that way. The mountain seems to roll and ungulate in a way that makes for entertaining and fun terrain to ski. I'm bummed I've never had the opportunity to experience it.

It is a great, classic NE ski resort.
Or at least, it was until Vail bought it.

 

[sull1102]

The summit detach is going to need some rebuild soon I’m sure, coming up on 30 years old and run year round for at least 15-20 years of its life.

The fixed grips, I mean for a company like Vail it should really not be a huge burden to install a new fixed grip quad for under $4-5 million.

 

[eatskisleep]

for a company like Vail it should really not be a huge burden to install a new fixed grip quad for under $4-5 million.

That’s my major point in this whole argument. If ANYONE could “save” Wildcat, it’s Vail with the deep pockets. Their market cap right now is $6,000,000,000… they can afford to fix the snowmaking. They have the staff in corporate that can deal with WMFN/USFS etc to get whatever permits are needed. Why are you making excuses for such a large corporation that has the dough to fix their problems? There is a lot of money in the MWV; Wildcat could be a great feeder hill for people wanting to go out west and ski Vail… but they have pissed off most people there who now won’t spend a dime on such an ePiC ExPeRiEnCe.

Wildcat has some of the best terrain in NH, and unlike Cannon (with the exception of when the Tram is actually running, and the few runs that come back to the tram) you can ski the whole mountain from 1 lift. One VERY FAST lift. It really is a shame Vail doesn’t care about The Cat.

I’ll save the spring skiing argument for later