VAIL SUCKS

[BenedictGomez]

I guess that's good that you don't have to deal with the same traffic for PC areas as the horror stories you hear about the Cottonwoods on the weekends.

Yeah, I'm sure it sucks ass most places (I hear Stowe's been crushed), but here, you're basically living on top of the mountain. Either you live in Park City itself & can obviously be to Deer Valley or PCMR lickety-split, or you live someplace real close like Heber or Midway, right on top of a highway you do 80mph on & are there in 15 to 30 minutes depending where you live. It's easy. Ten years from now I'm not so sure though; I think the traffic in Heber, for instance, will become s****y.

 

[PAabe]

Out of curiosity I did some research -The same package (lesson+rental+ticket) is
$75 at Spring Mt
$135 at Mad River, Belleayre, or Shawnee
$180 at Loveland, Whiteface, or Sunlight

$486 for a first time try their hand at skiing... turned off to the sport to before they even get on the snow. And first timers may not know where to shop around for deals or may be dragged along in a group just to face that sticker shock.

Though Vail employees have perks here, take for example their $14/hr salary, factoring in median take home, it would take over an entire week of work, with overtime, to pay for this. A disgusting Gilded Age of skiing for newcomers

 

[BenedictGomez]

$486 for a first time try their hand at skiing... turned off to the sport to before they even get on the snow.

This has always been my primary concern regarding this business model. I think they're killing the future of the sport.

But when you're in the C-suite at Vail or Alterra, that's not your concern. All you care about is maximizing revenue & minimizing costs today. By the time the industry suffers, you'll be retired (with a sick package).

 

[PAabe]

The budget friendly areas, like Spring Mt, are becoming few and far between - We have expensive lifts, which have zero benefit for beginners (Seems like an old lift falling apart is a death sentence with the additional duopoly of Doppelmayer/Poma). Todays liability and insurance costs are absurd for any small time operation. And our ski equipment has gotten so advanced that small areas are outright boring to the typical above average skier on modern equipment.

Interestingly enough, the only reason Spring Mt is still operating is because the major ski shop in the area bought it when it went under - because THEY for one recognize that if novices do not have an affordable and welcoming place to ski, their entire business will soon enough disappear...

 

[deadheadskier]

I haven't done the research, but I strongly suspect that there has been a bit of a domino effect from both Vails cheap season passes and expensive day tickets that has resulted in the remaining independent feeder areas raising all prices; passes, tickets, lessons, rentals F&B etc.

It would be interesting to hear from the owners of these areas how and why they've adopted pricing changes to adapt to the industry changes driven by Vail. Are they raising prices because they can as it will still seem more affordable compared to Vail feeder hills? Or are they raising prices because they have lost costumer volume to Vail?

 

[PAabe]

Maybe the biggest thing I do not get are the high rental prices. They have got to be losing ticket and f/b sales because of it especially if you account for return business. I am not familiar with the costs and liabilities to offer rentals but they easily double the cost of a ski day for novices a lot of the time which is often the difference in convincing somebody they should come out; unless they are the exact same shoe size and can borrow your extra gear which is an entirely different gray area. Yet somehow a ski shop will rent someone gear at like $60 for a long weekend and come out in the black

 

[thetrailboss]

Uh oh. The WSJ chimes in. Sorry for the duplicate.

https://www.wsj.com/business/vail-resorts-epic-pass-multiresort-ikon-40ae7205?st=b52yDt&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR2imdiCK_7of1fYzMKUpuTiOLfhJbS9fovrIcX3opLa6JImXg0A9msXziQ_aem_wQhO5GathXLqSnorUdt1Uw

 

[thetrailboss]

Uh oh. The WSJ chimes in.

https://www.wsj.com/business/vail-resorts-epic-pass-multiresort-ikon-40ae7205?st=b52yDt&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR2imdiCK_7of1fYzMKUpuTiOLfhJbS9fovrIcX3opLa6JImXg0A9msXziQ_aem_wQhO5GathXLqSnorUdt1Uw

And wait for it….

We’re not always perfect, but we do listen and we do take action and we do try to make investments back to improve the guest experience,” said Lynch, who has been Vail’s CEO for three years, after 10 years as its chief marketing officer. A lifelong skier, she previously worked in marketing at PepsiCo and Kraft Foods.

Another food and bev alumni at Vail!

 

[thetrailboss]

The problem for locals in SLC and Denver is it's now basically a duopoly. You really can't speak with your wallet.

Only going to get worse from a traffic and crowding perspective. While jealous of the quality of terrain and snow, I am not envious of what the future looks like for skiers in those cities.

At least here in the Northeast there are still many independent and low key options and we don't have near the traffic problems. Let's hope we've seen the last of Epic and iKon expansion here

Alta is independent. So is Snowbasin. And Sundance. Brighton is Boyne. Snowbird is POWDR. So there are options besides Alterra and Vail.

 

[BenedictGomez]

I haven't done the research, but I strongly suspect that there has been a bit of a domino effect from both Vails cheap season passes and expensive day tickets that has resulted in the remaining independent feeder areas raising all prices; passes, tickets, lessons, rentals F&B etc.

No research needed, simply economics. Vail & Alterra massively and artificially raised the prices of single day lift tickets into the stratosphere. This allowed the non-behemoth resorts to all substantially raise their prices as well. It's essentially incidental price fixing. Their competitors took price so high there was no reason they had to keep lift tickets at $75 or $80.

And I know someone's going to mention inflation, so yes, although inflation has been terrible over the last 4 years, these increases are way in excess of inflation, so that's not the excuse. Even far out-of-the-way places like Jay Peak is $125 for a single day. Little Mom & Pop, "family friendly", Smuggler's Notch? $120 dollars a day! Unthinkable just a few years ago.

 

[Former Sunday Rivah Rat]

Snowbasin & Sundance are more low-key options;

Snowbasin isn't low key on weekends. That's why we are taking today off. I was pumped to see Snowbird got 10 inches and Alta 5 inches, that should mitigate the IKON hoards a bit tomorrow at the Basin.

 

[thetrailboss]

Snowbasin isn't low key on weekends. That's why we are taking today off. I was pumped to see Snowbird got 10 inches and Alta 5 inches, that should mitigate the IKON hoards a bit tomorrow at the Basin.

Most IKONs will be blacked out this weekend. That said, a lot of locals do have the upper tiers of IKON so it doesn't really matter. It is going to be cold tomorrow and Monday.