SIKSKIER
New member
Fixed it for ya :wink:
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Where are the moguls? A brief look at the demise of moguls.
- Thread starter Greg
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Fixed it for ya :wink:
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For those that can't ski them, I agree.
eastcoastpowderhound
New member
I wouldn't say everyone
maybe for the "experts" who ski out west that is true, but when you ski the east the steeps arent that steep, the powder doesnt last long before its tracked out and the snow in trees gets skied out pretty fast as well. so most days in the east the only challenge on the mountain is moguls. most people who dont like moguls are the ones that cant ski them
eastcoastpowderhound
New member
its funny, a few of you have called out the ASC resorts for playing a hand in the death of moguls but while KL and SB were mowing everything down, the birthplace of ASC, Sunday River, was letting half of 3D (an intermediate run) bump up...they also let half of Tempest bump and have a nice progression from 3D to runs like Downdraft, Quantum Leap, White Heat, Shockwave, Vortex, and most of the runs in Oz which all see minimal grooming...this was going on long before Boyne came to town.
mondeo
New member
(Mostly) cross post from BMM's site:
I don't think it's any one thing that did it. Grooming was definitely part. The onset of extreme skiing, and then park skiing, made it uncool. Probably more important than the impact of shaped skis on turn style is the impact on skill levels. By definition, shaped skis made skiing easier, therefore at the same pitch/speed people are less skilled. People that don't want a challenge are going to stick to groomers more because they get relatively more frustrated in the bumps.
Regarding bump skiing at Killington:
If you wanted to ski intermediate bumped terrain at Killington over the few years that I've skied there, you could. The problem is the runs are scattered. Vagabond, under the Skye gondi, upper Wildfire, and middle Ovation are all decent intermediate bump runs. But nowhere is there a concentration of bump runs. You can't watch guys rip OL and then ski bumps on Wildfire the entire way or a bumped Bearclaw at all. If you want to learn bumps at K, you're either stuck on the same run over and over or crossing over the entire mountain, in all its traversing glory.
And in the last year and a half, I think O.L. was mowed flat completely once, for BMMC in 2008. POWDR has consistently left the third of O.L. to skier's right untouched. And if you want good lines, that's where you go. I think if mountains followed a policy of just leaving the bumps alone, the lines would be much better on the whole just by letting bumps mature beyond their GS turn infancy.
I don't think it's any one thing that did it. Grooming was definitely part. The onset of extreme skiing, and then park skiing, made it uncool. Probably more important than the impact of shaped skis on turn style is the impact on skill levels. By definition, shaped skis made skiing easier, therefore at the same pitch/speed people are less skilled. People that don't want a challenge are going to stick to groomers more because they get relatively more frustrated in the bumps.
Regarding bump skiing at Killington:
If you wanted to ski intermediate bumped terrain at Killington over the few years that I've skied there, you could. The problem is the runs are scattered. Vagabond, under the Skye gondi, upper Wildfire, and middle Ovation are all decent intermediate bump runs. But nowhere is there a concentration of bump runs. You can't watch guys rip OL and then ski bumps on Wildfire the entire way or a bumped Bearclaw at all. If you want to learn bumps at K, you're either stuck on the same run over and over or crossing over the entire mountain, in all its traversing glory.
And in the last year and a half, I think O.L. was mowed flat completely once, for BMMC in 2008. POWDR has consistently left the third of O.L. to skier's right untouched. And if you want good lines, that's where you go. I think if mountains followed a policy of just leaving the bumps alone, the lines would be much better on the whole just by letting bumps mature beyond their GS turn infancy.
millerm277
Active member
Hmm. You know what, I don't really agree with this. I understand the points made, but....the reality is, especially at Killington, most of the main trails see very heavy traffic, and arguably aren't suitable for bumps, as the people that will be coming through that area whether it's bumped or not, aren't capable of it. Therefore, they have been keeping a good amount of bump runs, but they just have been keeping them on the less used trails. Pretty much all of the natural snow runs have been left bumped unless there's a major thaw/freeze cycle that requires them to be groomed, and there are a good number of intermediate bump runs depending on snowfall.
Hunter also does a pretty excellent job with it's moguls....Ike makes a great run to learn bumps, and is where I've been practicing. The whole west side, Upper Crossover, K-27, and sections of other runs are left bumped as well.
To be honest, one of the major problems I had learning mogul skiing, is that lessons without aerials have been pretty hard to find for the younger bracket. All of the mogul lessons for my age group always had aerial stuff as well, which isn't something I like.
Hunter also does a pretty excellent job with it's moguls....Ike makes a great run to learn bumps, and is where I've been practicing. The whole west side, Upper Crossover, K-27, and sections of other runs are left bumped as well.
To be honest, one of the major problems I had learning mogul skiing, is that lessons without aerials have been pretty hard to find for the younger bracket. All of the mogul lessons for my age group always had aerial stuff as well, which isn't something I like.
jaywbigred
Active member
Hmmm, where to start with this..........
Keeping it short and sweet, for me, bumps are the most fun thing you can do on skis (sex acts and winning the lottery aside...)
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4aprice
Well-known member
I'd take double digit dry powder over bumps but not anything else (yea the sex and lottery too). Moguls are dying? I'm late to the party again since I've been pushing my local mountain for more. The old ownership of Camelback mowed the mountain flat but the new ownership has allowed moguls so maybe we're going back the other way. I'm pushing for more. Lower Cleopatra is a great mogul training ground and like another poster said I always see traffic on it. Mountain management has been pretty receptive and not poo-pooed the idea so I see some hope.
I have nothing against the park crowd but the mountains have certainly catered to them and I don't see them that well used. I know insurance is a problem for these areas but some of the airs they create in the parks are massive and I can't see how moguls could be considered a larger risk then that.
Like Greg said 1 or 2 trails designated as mogul runs are all that needed.
Alex
Lake Hopatcong, NJ
Unless it is your 100% focus, there is no ROI in the terrain park. Even Echo mountain, which used to be terrain park only, had to change their operations plan because the park crowd didn't support the operation. It's a huge cost center, and a huge liability. It's basically job security for ski patrol. Moguls aren't a risk... they slow people down. They actually prevent injury. An intermediate who decides to try picking up some speed can go way beyond safety on a steep, groomed run. That same intermediate would have an awful lot of trouble picking up enough speed on a bump run. I'm not sure I've heard of ANY mogul-related deaths in my lifetime. I here tons of reports of "collision with tree" deaths on groomers.
eastcoastpowderhound
New member
I've got a torn rotator cuff from 1992 that says otherwise
millerm277
Active member
Eh. I agree with BMM's point. Any idiot, can point them straight down the hill and most of the time make it to the bottom in one piece on a groomer, completely out of control the entire way down. And then they think they're "good" and repeat. One obstacle, or anomaly, and they're seriously injuring someone or themselves, because they don't have the ability to stop/slow/maneuver.
On moguls? I dare anyone over about 100lbs to try. It will scare the s*** out of you. You have to either ski them correctly, or take your time going down learning.
riverc0il
New member
The mogul is currently in its rebirth. It died much prior to now. I remember picking an internet fight with Cannon because they were grooming everything. They relented and started offering half bumps on many trails instead of full grooming. Bush announced their revised bump program within the past year or two. K has committed to a seeded run this year. You guys have done wonders down at Sundown. I recall joegm on FTO going ballistic at Loon and Waterville and getting results over there. Etc.
I think many mountains are reconsidering the brutal groom everything mentality they got into due to the aging baby boomers. I think the younger generation and the park/pipe crowd really helped. Moguls need to be involved with that segment of the skiing population, not separate from it. The kids coming up are fearless and don't need or want things easy and I think we'll continue to see demand for bumps grow. The BC and tree scene has also exploded lately as well as the slack country earned turn scene. I think these are all related. They are all groups of people saying "groomers are boring". And as the boomers stop skiing, our voices will get louder. Until our knees start hurting, at least
I think many mountains are reconsidering the brutal groom everything mentality they got into due to the aging baby boomers. I think the younger generation and the park/pipe crowd really helped. Moguls need to be involved with that segment of the skiing population, not separate from it. The kids coming up are fearless and don't need or want things easy and I think we'll continue to see demand for bumps grow. The BC and tree scene has also exploded lately as well as the slack country earned turn scene. I think these are all related. They are all groups of people saying "groomers are boring". And as the boomers stop skiing, our voices will get louder. Until our knees start hurting, at least
Sky
Active member
I'd like to think that I'll get someplace where moguls are seeded on intermediate terrain so I can attempt to learn to ski bumps.
I don't anticipate bumps becoming a preferred teraain for me....but I certainly would love to lose the "scared-to-death" sensation I get when I encounter them on "the only way down the hill".
Walking down bumped terrain is.....embarrassing.
So, Loon and Sundown eh?
I know many of you have read (and enjoyed) that book by the Cannon instructor (Everything your instructor never told you...)...something like that. I read that and actually preferred the instruction in "The All Mountain Skier". The author makes a good pitch with a beginner technique that progresses into an advanced technique. Makes perfect sense as I read it....it's the "Doing it" part I need to work on.
I don't anticipate bumps becoming a preferred teraain for me....but I certainly would love to lose the "scared-to-death" sensation I get when I encounter them on "the only way down the hill".
Walking down bumped terrain is.....embarrassing.
So, Loon and Sundown eh?
I know many of you have read (and enjoyed) that book by the Cannon instructor (Everything your instructor never told you...)...something like that. I read that and actually preferred the instruction in "The All Mountain Skier". The author makes a good pitch with a beginner technique that progresses into an advanced technique. Makes perfect sense as I read it....it's the "Doing it" part I need to work on.
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The mogul is currently in its rebirth. It died much prior to now. I remember picking an internet fight with Cannon because they were grooming everything. They relented and started offering half bumps on many trails instead of full grooming. Bush announced their revised bump program within the past year or two. K has committed to a seeded run this year. You guys have done wonders down at Sundown. I recall joegm on FTO going ballistic at Loon and Waterville and getting results over there. Etc.
I think many mountains are reconsidering the brutal groom everything mentality they got into due to the aging baby boomers. I think the younger generation and the park/pipe crowd really helped. Moguls need to be involved with that segment of the skiing population, not separate from it. The kids coming up are fearless and don't need or want things easy and I think we'll continue to see demand for bumps grow. The BC and tree scene has also exploded lately as well as the slack country earned turn scene. I think these are all related. They are all groups of people saying "groomers are boring". And as the boomers stop skiing, our voices will get louder. Until our knees start hurting, at least
A mogul renaissance? :lol: Seriously, well said. I did perceive a bit of a shift. Loon abondoning the bump thing a bit towards the second half of the last decade was interesting to me. Prior to that, they had some of the best seeded bumps anywhere. In fact, Loon is where I got hooked. February 2004:
eastcoastpowderhound
New member
If there were as many people skiing bumps as there are "idiots" pointing them straight down the hill, I'd be willing to bet you'd see a similar injury ratio. The reason fewer people get injured skiing bumps is that there are very few people skiing them regularly. Learning how to ski bumps is a contact sport.
quite true. you will fall. and you will fall often. you just have to accept that fact.
I don't think that is as much a factor as is speed. You just can't go that fast in the bumps without falling! More falls? Yep. But definitely fewer high-speed collisions and injuries.
eastcoastpowderhound
New member
agreed, fewer high speed collisions...but more of the slow, twisting, knee-blowing types...and plenty of concussions from the spin around, dig your tails into the next bump and slam the back of your melon type falls.
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