Cannon lift out to bid

[SIKSKIER]

Gunstock and Cannon both have, but in those cases, they reinstalled their decades-old chairlifts (Pistol Triple at Gunstock (former Summit Triple) and Eagle Cliff Triple at Cannon (formerly the Summit Triple at Sunapee, I believe).

Sunapee has also installed a used chair, but that was after it was privately leased.

First,Cannon did install a used lift from Sunapee mainly because they got it free from the Muellers and they made 2 lifts out of it.The Eagle Cliff and the Brookside.Second,to your point about Mittersill not holding snow as good as Cannon I say BS.For the last 15 years I've lived right across the street from where the new lift will be installed and I've been on that mountain virtually every weekend for the last 35.I think I have a lot more knowledge of what's happening there than probably anybody on this forum.Mittersill has a more northerly exsposure than Cannon and holds snow just fine.When you show photos from Mittersill they are natural snowfall photos.You can't compare that with Cannon's mammade snow coverage.Apples and oranges.Just look at the few trails Cannon does not make snow on and you'll see the same amount.The more northerly exposed Mittersill is not a detrement to snow depth as the north winds only effect the upper reaches of Cannon's terrain.The biggest issues with wind by far are the ones from the south which acount for almost all the lift closures along with bringing in warm temps and very high melting.I know,I watched it out my window for decades.
Third,Mittersill WILL have snowmaking so I don't know where you get the idea that the lifts will spin only 10 weeks a year.Your basing that on its being skiable with natural snow.

 

[AdironRider]

Im fully taking into account profit margin. 26,000,000 over the lifts useful life is certainly attainable. You have to think outside of just Cannons profit margin as well, which I think they will meet by adding Mittersill as lift served alone. Think of the economic impact to the surrounding area. Hotels, gas, food, other tourist destinations. It all adds up. You cant just compare lift ticket sales to a cost of a lift.

And those lifts look pretty and all, but outside of Okemos lift, and Cannons tuckerbrook lift, not a single area youve posted is in the same league. The powerhouses of Crotched, Jiminy, and Wachusett oh my!

Mittersill alone is probably bigger than all of those areas. Id like to see an entire mid level ski area be opened for under ten million alone.

Im not saying used lifts are going to cost just as much, but maintenance is not free, and if it needs more of it, great, thats a constant draw on funds that could be better spent on the on mountain experience year after year. Id rather take the hit up front and leave much more in the coffers on a year over year basis. That is like comparing a used car to a new car. Pay me now or pay me later.

I also think its tough to compare snow holding capacity on Mittersill now to after it opens. Skier compaction goes a decent way towards preserving snow over the long term, compared to the relatively little amount of traffic it currently gets. The notion to compare it to Cannons current natural snow trails is spot on.

 

[threecy]

Second,to your point about Mittersill not holding snow as good as Cannon I say BS.

Left natural, critical parts of Mittersill do not hold snow well enough to provide a lift served product that skiers expect, from Thanksgiving to Easter.

Third,Mittersill WILL have snowmaking so I don't know where you get the idea that the lifts will spin only 10 weeks a year.Your basing that on its being skiable with natural snow.

"There is no snowmaking right now, but there may be limited snowmaking on just a couple of primary trails some time in the future" - Cannon Mountain web site

Im fully taking into account profit margin. 26,000,000 over the lifts useful life is certainly attainable.

Using 2010 US dollars again for argument's sake, Cannon would have to sell over 393,000 full price adult lift tickets above and beyond their current levels at a 10% profit margin in order to pay for the installation of that brand new lift.

And those lifts look pretty and all, but outside of Okemos lift

Those were just a few examples. Did you know the South Face at Okemo was opened with a used quad chairlift (I didn't post a photo because I don't have a photo of that lift when it was there)? The South Face has just about the same vertical drop as Mittersill.

not a single area youve posted is in the same league. The powerhouses of Crotched, Jiminy, and Wachusett oh my!

Oh really? Did you know Jiminy and Wachusett ski more people than Cannon?

Mittersill alone is probably bigger than all of those areas.

How is Mittersill bigger than Jiminy, Crotched, and Wachusett? Lift served vertical drop, by a few hundred feet, sure. But total official acreage? Trails? Lifts? Snowmaking terrain? Skier visits? Days of operation?

Id like to see an entire mid level ski area be opened for under ten million alone.

With little to no infrastructure, as the $10M for Mittersill included, if I'm not mistaken? Regardless, Crotched Mountain raises its hand.

That is like comparing a used car to a new car. Pay me now or pay me later.

Not at all. Comparing new/used lifts to cars is like managing a major league baseball team using knowledge gathered from a pack of baseball cards.

 

[AdironRider]

Cannon is aiming for a different market than any of those areas mentioned. Do I literally have to spell out everything with every post I make? Its like arguing with a donkey. We already covered that like 6 pages ago, yet you keep bringing it up. Im not doubting Wachusett gets more skier visits, but they get a different market. Get it? People go to Wachusett cause its cheap and right near Boston. Noone is going to say, hey that Wachusett is just the same as Cannon, why bother? If theyre going to drive 2+ hours north they are looking for a different experience. The car argument is a generalization, youre just arguing semantics at this point.

Again you bring up just lift tickets when, being a government entity and seeing how thats your entire base for your argument, you should really be looking at overall economic impact. But if you want to keep it just lift tickets fine, I feel 100% confident that over the course of this lifts life, and lets put it at 30 years for a nice round number, that it will certainly bring in more than an additional 13,100 lift tickets sold a year. (Thats 393,000 divided by 30, since I have to spell it out for you). Add a couple thousand to cover labor and maintenance costs and I still feel confident. Thats without taking into account the additional economic impact for the surrounding area, which Im sure theyre stoked about as well. You've yet to comment on that.

We get it, you dont like Mittersill being opened again for your own personal reasons, but this is far from a losing deal for the citizens of NH. Ill concede that, yes, in some form they could have done it cheaper, but I think in the long run this is great for Cannon and great for the taxpayer of NH. Get over it.

 

[threecy]

The car argument is a generalization, youre just arguing semantics at this point.

The car argument is ridiculous to begin with. Why will only a brand new chairlift last 30 years? You haven't provided any sort of evidence as to what would only cause a refurbished chairlift to fail and need to be replaced.

Cannon is aiming for a different market than any of those areas mentioned. Do I literally have to spell out everything with every post I make? Its like arguing with a donkey. We already covered that like 6 pages ago, yet you keep bringing it up. Im not doubting Wachusett gets more skier visits, but they get a different market. Get it? People go to Wachusett cause its cheap and right near Boston. Noone is going to say, hey that Wachusett is just the same as Cannon, why bother? If theyre going to drive 2+ hours north they are looking for a different experience.

What's the difference though? Are you suggesting that the average skier in Cannon's market knows the difference between a 100% brand new double chairlift and a refurbished new double chairlift, but the average skier in Wachusett's market doesn't?

Are you suggesting that a skier in Cannon's market will only visit Cannon if the new double chairlift is brand new, rather than refurbished? Are you suggesting that the original install date of double chairlift is the deciding factor, rather than the terrain, conditions, pricing, etc.?

 

[bobbutts]

It's a double chair! not a fancy gondola or detachable. I would say the impact of new vs. used for visitor perception is close to 0

Joe skier is going to think it sucks for being so slow anyway.

IMO they should have gone cheap here with a used double or gone all out and made this pod into a real draw with detachable chair and extensive snowmaking.

 

[AdironRider]

You want to make the time frame longer, it only hurts your point.

And yes, I am saying that someone who is going to spend a weekend at Cannon, is going to be looking for more than a feeder hill like WaWa. Im done arguing with you, agree to disagree.

 

[SIKSKIER]

Left natural, critical parts of Mittersill do not hold snow well enough to provide a lift served product that skiers expect, from Thanksgiving to Easter.

.

You don't have a clue what your talking about.It holds snow as well or better than most of Cannon.Cannon is way more exposed than Mittersill.Again,I know,I've lived at the bottom of Mittersill for the last 15 years.You could say the exact same thing about any mountain in the east if left natural.Whats the point?

 

[threecy]

You don't have a clue what your talking about.It holds snow as well or better than most of Cannon.Cannon is way more exposed than Mittersill.Again,I know,I've lived at the bottom of Mittersill for the last 15 years.

I'm only basing that on my year round exploration of the Mittersill area in the past three years and the hundreds of photographs I have taken of it. I should have not used Cannon proper as the comparison, however it doesn't change the issue - critical parts of Mittersill (in relation to this project) do not hold snow well enough to provide a lift served product that skiers expect.

Unless Cannon plans to do at least a moderate amount of snowmaking over there, or if we get some great snow years, Mittersill will only be open probably ~10 weeks a year. This also assumes that Cannon doesn't pull the plug on operations over there when skier vists lag.

You could say the exact same thing about any mountain in the east if left natural.Whats the point?

The point is that Cannon is dumping millions of dollars on an area that they admit will have no snowmaking at first and limited in the future. If they wanted to have a natural, lift serviced area, they could have done so for a significantly lower price (and perhaps preserved the character of the trails a bit more - I would imagine you agree they butchered the Taft Trail above the top double chair terminal).

 

[bigbob]

The approval that was received allowed Cannon only to replace what was there. They have a used lift, it is there already. Why was that lift not refurbished? Would that of not been the lowest cost option to the taxpayers of NH??? Obviously some one must of looked at this option prior to purchasing a new lift and dismissed this option.

 

[thetrailboss]

The approval that was received allowed Cannon only to replace what was there. They have a used lift, it is there already. Why was that lift not refurbished? Would that of not been the lowest cost option to the taxpayers of NH??? Obviously some one must of looked at this option prior to purchasing a new lift and dismissed this option.

Just to be clear...that lift has not operated for over 20 years and is quite decayed. It is not even close to being safe.

From NELSAP:

From Chairlift.org:

 

[threecy]

The approval that was received allowed Cannon only to replace what was there. They have a used lift, it is there already. Why was that lift not refurbished? Would that of not been the lowest cost option to the taxpayers of NH??? Obviously some one must of looked at this option prior to purchasing a new lift and dismissed this option.

Just to be clear...that lift has not operated for over 20 years and is quite decayed. It is not even close to being safe.

Indeed, there isn't much from that lift that could be reused.

On a related note, crews were already up there scoping things out yesterday.

 

[riverc0il]

Most of the install photos shown are small players (not major resorts). The few major resorts shown are minor secondary lifts or beginner areas, not a major trail pod. I had thought of some of those examples (especially Crotched). But again, they do not fit the criteria of a A) a major destination/resort and B) a major trail pod (no-beginner).

 

[riverc0il]

threecy's 10 week estimate is a little low, I think, but that double definitely won't run more than 15 weeks a season MAX. Mitty holds snow okay but the problem is sometimes Cannon has inconsistent seasons. In the past either years, there have been one or two seasons when natural snow trails like Mitt were not skiable until February (at least by the sane! I may have tried but regretted a few runs). Also at issue is Mitty is not graded and rock free like many trails. It takes a little more to cover everything up to Cannon standards for opening a trail (which are quite excessive, many a time ropes stay up at Cannon long past what is warranted, IMO).

 

[thetrailboss]

I wonder what efforts will be (and can be) made to clear out underbrush on the trails and to remove rocks, etc. Dangerous question I know....and probably sacrilege!

 

[riverc0il]

I wonder what efforts will be (and can be) made to clear out underbrush on the trails and to remove rocks, etc. Dangerous question I know....and probably sacrilege!

No sacrilege at all. Often times, the trees ski better than the trails over there because the trails have not been maintained. They just need to send a bunch of guys up there with scythes and crap. The trails definitely need some work and cleaning them up would not hurt as long as the trails don't get widened. Not much they can do about the rock. Lots of areas in which the rock is exposed with no vegetation covering it up. Perhaps erosion? I dunno. It is a lot easier to ski thin cover over grass than rock though.

 

[deadheadskier]

So.......when they do add Mittersill, anyone care to guess what their advertised Trail Count will be? Seeing how it's 72 now, I wouldn't be surprised if they stretch it into the 90s or maybe 100. That I would find freaking hilarious.

Cannon ranks up there with the biggest offenders in the East of boosting their trail count.

Wonder if they'll maintain the old Mittersill trail names.

 

[riverc0il]

Cannon is indeed a horrid offender of adding new trail names without adding trails. Amazing how few trails they "used to" have (prior to TBrook, Profile, and a few other legit new ones):
http://teachski.com/brochures/cannonmt/cannonmittersillsm.jpg

Mitty has maybe a dozen real runs but they could easily put over two dozen names on the map not even counting glades.
http://teachski.com/books/nationalsurvey/atlasmittersill.jpg

I would not be surprised to see Cannon push for the 100 count. uke:

 

[threecy]

Most of the install photos shown are small players (not major resorts). The few major resorts shown are minor secondary lifts or beginner areas, not a major trail pod.

I'm not sure why Mittersill should be considered a major trail pod? It will likely have the second lowest uphill capacity of any chairlift served pod in New England (next to the MRG single).

Another example of used lifts serving major pods at major resorts that I left out - the South Face at Okemo was originally built using a used fixed grip quad. They later replaced that with a high speed quad. That fixed grip quad was then installed used at Sunapee as the Sun Bowl Quad.

But again, they do not fit the criteria of a A) a major destination/resort

I don't understand why Cannon is considered a major ski area but Jiminy and Wachusett aren't. Jiminy has a much larger lift network than Cannon. Wachusett has more detachable chairs than Cannon. But, more importantly, Jiminy skis twice as many people as Cannon, and Wachusett skis three times as many people as Cannon. Cannon may seem like a major resort due to the tram and large vertical drop, however it certainly doesn't ski anywhere near as many people as the big players in New England.

No sacrilege at all. Often times, the trees ski better than the trails over there because the trails have not been maintained. They just need to send a bunch of guys up there with scythes and crap. The trails definitely need some work and cleaning them up would not hurt as long as the trails don't get widened.

They already started this last year, by widening a few trails (including Taft above the top of the chairlift and leaving a bunch of stubs sticking about 2-3" above the ground). As of yesterday, they've widened a bunch more (including the lift line), and are solidifying the work road to the top terminal.

 

[threecy]

I would not be surprised to see Cannon push for the 100 count. uke:

I wouldn't be surprised either...with Bretton Woods and Attitash chasing after each other for the last 20 years for the title of "NH's biggest," I wouldn't be surprised to see Cannon try to lay claim as a result of this project. In some comparisons, the numbers Bretton Woods and Attitash use are just silly vs. some Vermont areas, as an example.