How is Belleayre operating minus

[oakapple]

Didn't read the article but this quote basically says it all - it was a money loser and would be out of business if it was not a state run facility with what public unions think is a bottomless pit full of taxpayer cash. Hopefully now they will at least break even.

If it was not a state-run facility, it would probably have received more investment and timely upgrades, and would be better marketed. I wouldn't say, based on two recession years, that it would be out of business if the state didn't own it.

 

[gmcunni]

New York State Fair - DEC building usually has complimentary passes.

http://www.belleayre.com/company/calendar.htm
scroll down a bit, look for the blue box on the right.

Thanks!

 

[threecy]

If it was not a state-run facility, it would probably have received more investment and timely upgrades, and would be better marketed.

Do you realize that nearly half of the new lifts installed in New York, 1999-2009, were at state owned ski areas?

Bellayre alone has had 3 brand new quads installed during that time period.

 

[mondeo]

If it was not a state-run facility, it would probably have received more investment and timely upgrades, and would be better marketed. I wouldn't say, based on two recession years, that it would be out of business if the state didn't own it.

Calling BS on this one. What do you think pays for the investments? The expectation of ROI. With Bell, there is no ROI. Managed as is, there would be even less investment, because the current owners aren't making any money to put in on their own and no financial institution would loan them money with that business plan.

 

[x10003q]

Do you realize that nearly half of the new lifts installed in New York, 1999-2009, were at state owned ski areas?

Link?

 

[oakapple]

Calling BS on this one. What do you think pays for the investments? The expectation of ROI. With Bell, there is no ROI. Managed as is, there would be even less investment, because the current owners aren't making any money to put in on their own and no financial institution would loan them money with that business plan.

What I am saying is that if Belleayre were owned by private enterprise, what you described as “that business plan” wouldn’t be the one presented to financial institutions. It would be more aggressive, as Hunter and Windham have been. What you see at Belleayre is obviously a business plan that only a government-run ski area could have come up with.

I have no idea if Belleayre has been a long-term money-loser; the data presented upthread (two recession years) probably under-state its long-term ROI. The ski industry in the area is obviously viable, given that Hunter, Windham, and Plattekill, are all still in business despite not being owned by the government. If Belleayre were competently run as a private business, why would it be any different?

 

[dmc]

If Belleayre were competently run as a private business, why would it be any different?

Well for one thing the we NY'rs wouldn't have to pay for it...

I think they should give breaks to in state people and charge regular fair ski resort prices to out of state people..

 

[dmc]

Didn't read the article but this quote basically says it all - it was a money loser and would be out of business if it was not a state run facility with what public unions think is a bottomless pit full of taxpayer cash. Hopefully now they will at least break even.
_

And that loss is without having to pay employees, insurance and taxes...

:roll:

 

[millerm277]

And that loss is without having to pay employees, insurance and taxes...

:roll:

Seriously? (on the first two)

 

[dmc]

Seriously? (on the first two)

yeah - state pays for liability insurance, workman's comp and group health insurance..

And the employees are funded by the state.. thus the layoffs.

And they also don't pay property tax, sales tax(sales and purchases), fuel taxes, etc...

 

[catskills]

I am not sure what the problem is here. I got a few questions:

1. On weekends does Windham really have room on the mountain to support more skiers and rider or are they pretty much maxed out?
2. On weekends does Hunter really have room on the mountain to support more skiers and riders or are they pretty much maxed out?
3. When Hunter installed a new high speed 6 pack chairlift, didn't they intentionally reduce the number of chairs to keep the new chair lift capacity the same as the old HSQ because the mountain can not handle more skiers and riders on the mountain?
4. Doesn't both Hunter and Windham make many millions of dollars selling real-estate for ski in/out property close to the mountain?
5. Isn't the real-estate market around Belleayre pretty much a dead market?
6. Don't the Belleayre skiers and riders, many of them that come here from outside of NY state, pay a lot of taxes in sales tax and hotel taxes?
7. Doesn't the hotels and restaurants that benefit from Belleayre skiers and riders hire employees that pay NY state income taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, and a lot of other NY state taxes?
8. Doesn't the hotels and restaurants that benefit from Belleayre skiers and riders pay NY state property taxes.
9. Tell me again why Belleayre giving away 16,000 free lift tickets is such a bad thing for the tax payers in NY state and Hunter/Windham's bottom line?

 

[Rambo]

yeah - state pays for liability insurance, workman's comp and group health insurance..

And the employees are funded by the state.. thus the layoffs.

And they also don't pay property tax, sales tax(sales and purchases), fuel taxes, etc...

Beleive it or not but I think New York State pays School Taxes to all local school districts on the value of State owned land in the Catskill and Adirondack parks which land is located within these local School Districts. I read that somewhere once.

 

[curlyfuzzie]

yeah - state pays for liability insurance, workman's comp and group health insurance..

And the employees are funded by the state.. thus the layoffs.

And they also don't pay property tax, sales tax(sales and purchases), fuel taxes, etc...

Well, any employer has to pay for liability insurance and workman's comp, and DEC employees pay a hefty portion of their health insurance premiums, it is not 100% state funded. As has been noted, Belleayre has no on-site lodging, and the surrounding area doesn't offer much, either. What mom-and-pop motels are left date back to the '50's with very little updating, and not much offering in the apres ski scene, either. For me, Belleayre is strictly a day trip. OTOH, I have taken advantage of ski-and-stay packages at Windham. Haven't skied Hunter in decades, have been considering going back this year. What puzzles me about Belleayre is why it's being run by DEC, which is being decimated by state cuts, while Gore and Whiteface have the luxury of being part of ORDA, one of those wonderful little "Authorities" that escape being included as part of the state budget? Then again, I guess the real question is, why are New York Taxpayers being saddled with the cost of running three ski areas, anyway?

 

[millerm277]

@catskills, the problem is that they're losing more than $5.50 per skier visit last year, and assuming DMC is correct, probably a lot more than that. In addition, they were paying a ridiculous number of employees in a ridiculous way, which if they were making money....whatever I suppose, still a waste. When you're losing taxpayer money, not acceptable.

Giving away large amounts of freebies when you're losing money is a pretty terrible strategy unless there's something special you're trying to highlight, which there isn't.

The tax revenue argument and employment argument is terrible, it assumes that those people won't go skiing in the Catskills if Belleayre wasn't the place they were skiing. I'm sure Hunter would love the extra visitors so they can have the $$$$ to put in their full master plan for expansion and upgrade the West Side snowmaking.

 

[mondeo]

Won't somebody please think of the children?!

How does a mid-size ski mountain in the East have 58 year-round employees? I've looked, but can't find an actual list of the positions being cut. I've gotta think they're essentially paying some people to do nothing in the summer. It would be better to just pay them to stay home, that way they don't waste money on gas just to sit around. The defense of these jobs is mind boggling.

I grew up in near Buffalo, which has a lower population now than in 1900. Erie County has been steadily losing population since 1960. Why? Because people moved to the South. Why? Largely because taxes in the South are so much lower that businesses moved there. The one company (Bell Helicopter) that could have kept me in NY was on the vanguard of the flight, leaving Buffalo in the 1960s. And why are the taxes so high? Because of crap like this.

Cuts need to be made. The government can't employ everyone. It's been tried. The experiment lasted until around 1989.

 

[dmc]

I am not sure what the problem is here. I got a few questions:

1. On weekends does Windham really have room on the mountain to support more skiers and rider or are they pretty much maxed out?
2. On weekends does Hunter really have room on the mountain to support more skiers and riders or are they pretty much maxed out?
3. When Hunter installed a new high speed 6 pack chairlift, didn't they intentionally reduce the number of chairs to keep the new chair lift capacity the same as the old HSQ because the mountain can not handle more skiers and riders on the mountain?
4. Doesn't both Hunter and Windham make many millions of dollars selling real-estate for ski in/out property close to the mountain?
5. Isn't the real-estate market around Belleayre pretty much a dead market?
6. Don't the Belleayre skiers and riders, many of them that come here from outside of NY state, pay a lot of taxes in sales tax and hotel taxes?
7. Doesn't the hotels and restaurants that benefit from Belleayre skiers and riders hire employees that pay NY state income taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, and a lot of other NY state taxes?
8. Doesn't the hotels and restaurants that benefit from Belleayre skiers and riders pay NY state property taxes.
9. Tell me again why Belleayre giving away 16,000 free lift tickets is such a bad thing for the tax payers in NY state and Hunter/Windham's bottom line?

Your lashing out - like a groundhog cornered by a fishercat... You asking questions to prove your point that you think Belleayre is far better then Hunter and Windham... Somehow always excluding Plattekill who's not happy with Bell either....

yes - this is how private ski areas survive in the real modern world..

And when Belleayre puts in it's real estate you can erase a lot of your negative questions because it's going to fill their chairs and coffers...

 

[dmc]

Won't somebody please think of the children?!
.

haha

 

[catskills]

Your lashing out - like a groundhog cornered by a fishercat... You asking questions to prove your point that you think Belleayre is far better then Hunter and Windham... Somehow always excluding Plattekill who's not happy with Bell either....

yes - this is how private ski areas survive in the real modern world..

And when Belleayre puts in it's real estate you can erase a lot of your negative questions because it's going to fill their chairs and coffers...

DMC I think you are the fishercat than. The attacks against Belleayre are never ending. Its getting old.

DMC I think your right. This is like that movie Groundhog Day.

Actually I have seen this old fichercat at Hunter Fire tower many years ago. This guy was really old and was able to make a good living eating the hordes of porcupines up their. Fishercats and Bears are one of the few animals that can kill and eat porcupines. Very cool animal.

 

[dmc]

DMC I think you are a stronger fishercat than I. The attacks against Belleayre are never ending. Its getting old.

Actually I have seen this old fichercat at Hunter Fire tower many years ago. This guy was really old and was able to make a good living eating the hordes of porcupines up their. Fishercats and Bears are one of the few animals that can kill and eat porcupines. Very cool animal.

Welcome to my world... I've been defending Hunter for the last 2 decades.. And I will continue

I was serious about helping out down there if needed. We do a Toys For Tots for kids in Greene County and it's a huge success - we could try some like that for FAMILIES affected by this layoff. I posted this just after you called me Scrooge - but you may've missed it..

I have a Fishercat near my house.. It is cool. It only takes what it needs and does it on it's own. very cool.. Barely noticable unless your a rabbit..

 

[threecy]

DMC I think you are the fishercat than. The attacks against Belleayre are never ending. Its getting old.

Look at some of the pro-Belleayre posts in the last few threads - (not direct quotes because I don't have time to dig up the posts) 'Belleayre is closing!' 'Once the lift goes down, there will be no one to fix it' 'They're going to lose their job' etc.

As more and more data comes out (such as the list of positions being reduced from full-time-year-round, the operating losses, etc.), it becomes more and more obvious that there has been a misinformation campaign coming from some of the pro-Belleayre-hackarama folks.