How is Belleayre operating minus

[threecy]

Oh let me guess according to most folks on this forum its only worth a seasonal job with low pay that does not pay enough to live on.

I took the vow of poverty (worked in the ski industry) for some time and worked perhaps a few hundred hours on snowmaking over the course of 10 years. It is indeed a dangerous job. It is also a 2-3 month job.

 

[x10003q]

Yeah so. What has this got to do with anything. Jackson Hole is also WAY more busy in the summer. This thread is all over the place. :smash:


I want to add something to this thread that really pisses me off :angry: . A number of posts seem to imply that the Belleayre employees have it easy with their soft cushion jobs and they don't deserve their pay from the tax payers. I beg to differ. This is an insult to not only the Belleayre employees but employees at all the ski areas.

I think we need to show a hell of a lot more respect to the hard working ski areas employees.

• Snowmaking is sometimes listed as the top 10 most dangerous jobs. I had two snowmaker friends of mine, where one was knocked unconscious and the other died. Yeah he died. Unfortunately he is not the only snowmaker to loose his life.
• Snowmaking is cold, hard work, takes a lot of different skills including how to do a lift evac when your buddy is stuck on the lift at 2am in the morning.
• You know those little wheels on top of the towers that supports or pulls down the chair lift cable. When the bearing in those wheels wears out someone has to climb up there, crawl out on those wheels, reach way out with one arm and change them when its cold, dark and wind is blowing. Before he does that he has to pull one set of those wheels down with a cable and a winch. You know what happens when cables break? They can snap and take your head off in less than a second. All of you, me included, in your nice warm office jobs think about that. Let me ask you do you and I deserve our pay checks?
• Your have to be an artist to run a snowcat. It takes a lot of skill and years of experience. Running a snowcat can also be damn dangerous on a 40 degree slope.
• Running all the equipment in the pump house for snowmaking is not something you can just teach someone in a few hours. It takes years of experience. What exactly is all the experience worth. Oh let me guess according to most folks on this forum its only worth a seasonal job with low pay that does not pay enough to live on. Have a Merry Christmas everyone.

con·text, [kon-tekst]
the parts of a written or spoken statement that precede or follow a specific word or passage, usually influencing its meaning or effect: You have misinterpreted my remark because you took it out of context.

I am curious how you found my post to be critical of the Belleayre employees.

 

[mondeo]

Oh let me guess according to most folks on this forum its only worth a seasonal job with low pay that does not pay enough to live on. Have a Merry Christmas everyone.

It's only worth what the market will bear, just like every other job out there. The fact is every other ski area only does seasonal employment for these guys, and there's enough demand for the jobs that they can fill them. The only reason for the jobs to pay better is if they can't find people to do the job at the pay they're offering.

 

[threecy]

It's only worth what the market will bear, just like every other job out there. The fact is every other ski area only does seasonal employment for these guys, and there's enough demand for the jobs that they can fill them. The only reason for the jobs to pay better is if they can't find people to do the job at the pay they're offering.

A lot of groomers I knew/know operate heavy equipment in the spring-summer-fall. Grooming is a way to pass the winter by and make some extra money.

 

[snafu]

Yeah so. What has this got to do with anything. Jackson Hole is also WAY more busy in the summer. This thread is all over the place. :smash:


I want to add something to this thread that really pisses me off :angry: . A number of posts seem to imply that the Belleayre employees have it easy with their soft cushion jobs and they don't deserve their pay from the tax payers. I beg to differ. This is an insult to not only the Belleayre employees but employees at all the ski areas.

I think we need to show a hell of a lot more respect to the hard working ski areas employees.

• Snowmaking is sometimes listed as the top 10 most dangerous jobs. I had two snowmaker friends of mine, where one was knocked unconscious and the other died. Yeah he died. Unfortunately he is not the only snowmaker to loose his life.
• Snowmaking is cold, hard work, takes a lot of different skills including how to do a lift evac when your buddy is stuck on the lift at 2am in the morning.
• You know those little wheels on top of the towers that supports or pulls down the chair lift cable. When the bearing in those wheels wears out someone has to climb up there, crawl out on those wheels, reach way out with one arm and change them when its cold, dark and wind is blowing. Before he does that he has to pull one set of those wheels down with a cable and a winch. You know what happens when cables break? They can snap and take your head off in less than a second. All of you, me included, in your nice warm office jobs think about that. Let me ask you do you and I deserve our pay checks?
• Your have to be an artist to run a snowcat. It takes a lot of skill and years of experience. Running a snowcat can also be damn dangerous on a 40 degree slope.
• Running all the equipment in the pump house for snowmaking is not something you can just teach someone in a few hours. It takes years of experience. What exactly is all the experience worth. Oh let me guess according to most folks on this forum its only worth a seasonal job with low pay that does not pay enough to live on. Have a Merry Christmas everyone.

Catskill I admire your fire but you really have no logic or sound reasoning to counter the current situation that NYS (and many other states) are in. Nothing personal to the individuals who are losing/lost their jobs but yeah, I would say that they had it *relatively* easy - a full time employee with state benefits AT A SKI AREA? Think of them as someone who won an all-expense paid trip to some resort. Yeah they had a great time while it lasted - but now its over and now someone is looking for some sympathy for them? Hehe, I was lucky to get some sympathy from my wife when I was laid off in 2001, even that didn't last too long.

BTW - I heard that Bellayre employees also had to walk to work barefoot, and uphill both ways in the snow...it makes me feel a pang of guilt every time I cash that paycheck that I so obviously don't deserve.:razz:

 

[catskills]

So you're saying they're working hard blowing snow in the summer?

During the summer there are many other jobs on the mountain at all ski areas. Other ski areas may contract these projects out. Belleayre has chosen to use their own employees.

Just to name a few summer ski area jobs:

• Putting new snowmaking pipe in the ground on new trails.
• Installing new chair lifts. Yes most of the chair lift installation work was done by Belleayre employees.
• Replacing chair lift cables.
• Many other chair lift maintenance jobs.
• Moving fixed gripped chairs to a different location on the cable
• Snowmaking pump house maintenance and improvements
• New and wider trail construction. Hint groomer operators are very good at running heavy equipment for trail construction.
• New lodge construction.
• New maintenance building construction
• Many other general construction improvements
• Ton of other jobs I have not listed.

Do these employees at all ski areas deserve a minimum $30,000 a year salary with health benefits? Personally I think they do deserve it. Can ski area employees be FULLY self sufficient and live on $15,000 a year with no benefits? I don't know. Can you?

 

[threecy]

During the summer there are many other jobs on the mountain at all ski areas. Other ski areas may contract these projects out. Belleayre has chosen to use their own employees.

55 of them?!?

[*]Putting new snowmaking pipe in the ground on new trails.

That takes 8 months?

[*]Installing new chair lifts. Yes most of the chair lift installation work was done by Belleayre employees.

Two out of the past 10 or so years had a new chairlift installation. How about the other 8?

[*]Replacing chair lift cables.

Considering most of those lifts are new, I sure hope they aren't replacing cables yet, nevermind every summer.

[*]Many other chair lift maintenance jobs.
[*]Moving fixed gripped chairs to a different location on the cable

They have 5 chairlifts. Even if they weren't modern, that's a fall job, not an 8 month job.

[*]New and wider trail construction. Hint groomer operators are very good at running heavy equipment for trail construction.

They're cutting trails 8 months of the year and running heavy equipment on them during mud season? Seems detrimental to the forever wild tag.

[*]Ton of other jobs I have not listed.

Ski areas can do all of these jobs with season, occasionally full time labor, or with contractors. 55 full time employees at a government run area the size of Belleayre is a gross misuse of tax dollars...the more people twist things around and propogate lies in defense of this, the worse things are going to get.

 

[dmc]

Some stats... what i could find..

list of employees and titles
http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.com/page/blogs.detail/display/942/DEC-s-layoff---ERI-lists.html

Salary:
http://www.dec.ny.gov/about/571.html
Conservation Operations Supervisor 1, SG11..$36,523 $44,762
Clerk 1, SG6................................................$27,744 $34,317
General Mechanic, GS12..............................$38,612 $47,138
Laborer, SG06..............................................$27,744 $34,317
Maintenance Assistant, SG09.......................$32,653 $40,136


Keyboard Specialist 1...................................$11.47 per hour

 

[mondeo]

Do these employees at all ski areas deserve a minimum $30,000 a year salary with health benefits? Personally I think they do deserve it. Can ski area employees be FULLY self sufficient and live on $15,000 a year with no benefits? I don't know. Can you?

Why do they deserve $30K/year? Because they're good people? Sorry, doesn't cut it. If they can be replaced by someone making $15K/year without a combined increase in cost and decrease in revenue exceeding $15K, then no, they're not worth it. By definition.

Could I live on $15K/year? Probably. Would I want to try? Hell no, that's part of why I'm an engineer. It's a job with low supply and high demand. Does it matter? No. The "living wage" is a myth that only results in inflation and unemployment. If they can't live on $15K/year, then they need to find a job that pays better than that or another job. Perhaps seasonal work during the summer.

 

[dmc]

It doesn't cost much to live up here.

 

[Hawkshot99]

Salary:
http://www.dec.ny.gov/about/571.html

Ski Lift Operator 1 $13.27 per hour
Ski School Instructor 1 $12.70 per hour

;-)

Wow.....A lifty makes $13.27 an hour? That might be a bit more than most mountains....

 

[jtothewang]

Question

I am new to the thread, but given NYS fiscal situation, has anyone addressed why the state wouldn't just dispose of the asset, likely as well as other assets such as swimming pools and golf courses? The states needs to get out of these businesses anyway, and who knows what a private developer could do to Belleayre. From what I hear there is money on the sidelines waiting to jump in. I also heard Windham wanted to lease some property from NY City and was denied. The state and municipalities need to wake up!! I do feel for any lost job though, we just got way over our head this time!!

 

[millerm277]

Do these employees at all ski areas deserve a minimum $30,000 a year salary with health benefits? Personally I think they do deserve it. Can ski area employees be FULLY self sufficient and live on $15,000 a year with no benefits? I don't know. Can you?

No. They don't. The goal of business is generally to get the employees you want at the lowest cost. Being that there isn't any shortage of labor, you're wrong. It's unskilled labor. Unskilled labor has never been paid well, and never will be because there are always people who will take the job.

Being that they're state employees, even more so as I certainly don't think any taxpayer would approve of paying double what they need to for labor in any position, and that is who is paying their salaries.

And all of this stupid arguing is completely ignoring that it's not like we're even talking about what the necessary labor should be paid. We're talking about jobs that have at least half the year with absolutely no purpose or jobs where there are far more people than needed to accomplish it's responsibility.

Explain to me what on earth a ski area with 5 lifts needs TWENTY+ year round maintenance people for when every other ski area doesn't need that many, AND doesn't need them full time, and doesn't generally contract out for anything but chairlift installs and maybe huge construction projects they don't have the equipment for anyway. While we're at it, explain to me what two Ski Patrollers at a small daytrip mountain can possibly be doing in July.

 

[dmc]

We're talking about jobs that have at least half the year

I read somewhere that they can go up to 44 or 45 weeks...

 

[millerm277]

I read somewhere that they can go up to 44 or 45 weeks...

I was referring to when most of those 48 or whatever positions where actually needed. (As in: when those guys should be working)

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

Yeah so. What has this got to do with anything. Jackson Hole is also WAY more busy in the summer. This thread is all over the place. :smash:


I want to add something to this thread that really pisses me off :angry: . A number of posts seem to imply that the Belleayre employees have it easy with their soft cushion jobs and they don't deserve their pay from the tax payers. I beg to differ. This is an insult to not only the Belleayre employees but employees at all the ski areas.

I think we need to show a hell of a lot more respect to the hard working ski areas employees.

• Snowmaking is sometimes listed as the top 10 most dangerous jobs. I had two snowmaker friends of mine, where one was knocked unconscious and the other died. Yeah he died. Unfortunately he is not the only snowmaker to loose his life.
• Snowmaking is cold, hard work, takes a lot of different skills including how to do a lift evac when your buddy is stuck on the lift at 2am in the morning.
• You know those little wheels on top of the towers that supports or pulls down the chair lift cable. When the bearing in those wheels wears out someone has to climb up there, crawl out on those wheels, reach way out with one arm and change them when its cold, dark and wind is blowing. Before he does that he has to pull one set of those wheels down with a cable and a winch. You know what happens when cables break? They can snap and take your head off in less than a second. All of you, me included, in your nice warm office jobs think about that. Let me ask you do you and I deserve our pay checks?
• Your have to be an artist to run a snowcat. It takes a lot of skill and years of experience. Running a snowcat can also be damn dangerous on a 40 degree slope.
• Running all the equipment in the pump house for snowmaking is not something you can just teach someone in a few hours. It takes years of experience. What exactly is all the experience worth. Oh let me guess according to most folks on this forum its only worth a seasonal job with low pay that does not pay enough to live on. Have a Merry Christmas everyone.

So what's your point, because it is taxpayer funded we should pay these year around salaries even though 99.9% of the related market (ski resorts) use P/T seasonal employees? BTW, stop with how dangerous of a job it is, I think we all realize this, we also realize that there are tons of dangerous jobs out there.

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

During the summer there are many other jobs on the mountain at all ski areas. Other ski areas may contract these projects out. Belleayre has chosen to use their own employees.

Just to name a few summer ski area jobs:

• Putting new snowmaking pipe in the ground on new trails.
• Installing new chair lifts. Yes most of the chair lift installation work was done by Belleayre employees.
• Replacing chair lift cables.
• Many other chair lift maintenance jobs.
• Moving fixed gripped chairs to a different location on the cable
• Snowmaking pump house maintenance and improvements
• New and wider trail construction. Hint groomer operators are very good at running heavy equipment for trail construction.
• New lodge construction.
• New maintenance building construction
• Many other general construction improvements
• Ton of other jobs I have not listed.

Do these employees at all ski areas deserve a minimum $30,000 a year salary with health benefits? Personally I think they do deserve it. Can ski area employees be FULLY self sufficient and live on $15,000 a year with no benefits? I don't know. Can you?

It's called seasonal work for a reason, which inturn means there are other seasons where you can earn doing other things. It's not like people who do snowmaking, grooming, F/B don't know that it's only part of what they can do for the entire year to earn money, well I guess the employees at Bellearye might not know, but the other seasonal employees at other non tax funded resorts do.

I feel awful that these people will lose their jobs, but tough times call for tough measures. Although I guess you could argue that even in good times these jobs as they currently stand/stood should have never been.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

Yeah so. What has this got to do with anything. Jackson Hole is also WAY more busy in the summer. This thread is all over the place. :smash:


I want to add something to this thread that really pisses me off :angry: . A number of posts seem to imply that the Belleayre employees have it easy with their soft cushion jobs and they don't deserve their pay from the tax payers. I beg to differ. This is an insult to not only the Belleayre employees but employees at all the ski areas.

I think we need to show a hell of a lot more respect to the hard working ski areas employees.

• Snowmaking is sometimes listed as the top 10 most dangerous jobs. I had two snowmaker friends of mine, where one was knocked unconscious and the other died. Yeah he died. Unfortunately he is not the only snowmaker to loose his life.
• Snowmaking is cold, hard work, takes a lot of different skills including how to do a lift evac when your buddy is stuck on the lift at 2am in the morning.
• You know those little wheels on top of the towers that supports or pulls down the chair lift cable. When the bearing in those wheels wears out someone has to climb up there, crawl out on those wheels, reach way out with one arm and change them when its cold, dark and wind is blowing. Before he does that he has to pull one set of those wheels down with a cable and a winch. You know what happens when cables break? They can snap and take your head off in less than a second. All of you, me included, in your nice warm office jobs think about that. Let me ask you do you and I deserve our pay checks?
• Your have to be an artist to run a snowcat. It takes a lot of skill and years of experience. Running a snowcat can also be damn dangerous on a 40 degree slope.
• Running all the equipment in the pump house for snowmaking is not something you can just teach someone in a few hours. It takes years of experience. What exactly is all the experience worth. Oh let me guess according to most folks on this forum its only worth a seasonal job with low pay that does not pay enough to live on. Have a Merry Christmas everyone.

It is this sort of alarmist, irrelevant nonsense that is wholly representative of the bankrupt state of discourse when it comes to govt employees and expenses across the country. In the current parlance, converting part of an over-staffed, full-time workforce into a more efficient seasonal workforce = "massive layoffs!!!111". In a similar manner, slowing the rate of growth in a govt program is equivalent to "massive cuts in the programs for those who can least afford it!!!11!!".

Why is Belleayre unique in the industry? Does its infrastructure require 2-3x more maintenance and supervision than literally ANY private operator out there? Why should the taxpayers of NY State have to fund this featherbeded payroll? To take your arguments to their logical extreme, why not simply have the State fund "make work" jobs, with half the unemployed digging ditches and the other half filling them in? Free lunches from Albany every day!!!

 

[Bandit2941]

Ski Lift Operator 1 $13.27 per hour
Ski School Instructor 1 $12.70 per hour

;-)

Wow.....A lifty makes $13.27 an hour? That might be a bit more than most mountains....

The Lift Operators are higher up the rung then a regular lifty "lift attendent." Each lift that is in operation has to have at least one "Lift Operator" who has extra training running the lift on duty.

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

The Lift Operators are higher up the rung then a regular lifty "lift attendent." Each lift that is in operation has to have at least one "Lift Operator" who has extra training running the lift on duty.

Really? Since when? I am not being a dink, just curious. I was a lifty for a winter about 10 years ago while in college and it was me at the the bottom and local kid at the top. Just the two of us. On the more popular lifts you might get three or 4 lifties at the bottom and 1 or 2 at the top. From time to time a maintance guy would stop by, the lifts manger might stop by, etc. I don't ever recall a dedicated "lift operator" at each lift....or even at a lift.....could be wrong, I drank quite a bit back then.