10 years from now.....

[deadheadskier]

mount snow if they get the water project approved and somehow miraculously buy and connect to Haystack

Isn't Haystack now private?

 

[threecy]

Isn't Haystack now private?

A lot of it is, I think he was referring to if this project fails and liquidates.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

Bump for stoke!!!

 

[drjeff]

Killington will operate Thanksgiving to the 1st weekend in April, and a good portion of the businesses on the acces road will be closed because of the newly built, but yet only 40% occupied retail space at village, and still no interconnect

Stowe will by far and away eclipsed Stratton as the "glitzy" resort in the East.

Okemo will be pushing 1,000,000 skier visits with Mount Snow in the 750,000 to 800,000 range.

Magic will have had 6 more owners and still be questionable about will it operate for the next season

Sunday River will be the holder of the longest ski season in the East as Boyne realizes after a few seasons that it economically makes more sense to make some more snow at the River to keep it open longer than to keep Sugarloaf running past the 3rd week in April, and Sunday River will be drawing 800,000 to 900,000 a year.

There will be no new ski resorts that have opened in New England

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

I'd second Jay and also mention Whiteface, with the Lookout Mountain expansion. I also believe there were talks about expanding Whiteface to another peak as well, though I don't know what's happening with that, and Lookout will already put them at their max trail mileage.

Lookout is the other peak.

Whiteface was certainly in my honorable mention thoughts. Their trail expansion is pretty impressive in it's on right, but I was of the understanding that...bedeep, bedeep, bedeep...that's all folks..

What about Gore? Do they have as strict of limitations on their expansion as Whiteface?

I read somewhere that Gore's limit is 40 miles.

By that's all do you mean no more trail expansions or no slopeside lodging or village to go with it? If you mean the latter, you are probably totally right. I was focusing more on the skiing experience. As far as more trails, I'd like to hear someone knowledgeable chime in on the other mountain that I remember hearing something about, and whether that is at all possible, especially given the mileage limit.



Not sure about Gore. I haven't heard about one recently at least, so maybe they just aren't as close to it? HPD probably would know. Gore's expansion is impressive too, but it seems like it's adding vertical going down more than going up, and the terrain doesn't give me the impression as being quite as interesting--I could be completely 100% wrong here though.

I agree with you, even diehard Gore fans have said as much on SKIADK. That said, to answer the original question I think Gore will be the most changed place in 10 years. The trail expansion will go down to the Ski Bowl where there is a ton of new development planned. Residents will have a lift they can walk to, which is unique to the ADK Park. They are also planning an 18 hole golf course and a train hookup from Saratoge. People in the NYC area will be able to get train service right to Gore.

ORDA actually took money out of the Lookout project and put in into Gore's expansion. I've heard that money has been found to take it's place, but to my mind it shows ORDA's deep commentment to making Gore's expansion work. Gore will be a very different place, no longer a day trip, with a hard core local base. It will be a destination resort in the Northeast. If I was a Gore regular I'm not sure if I would like that or not.

 

[kcyanks1]

Lookout is the other peak.

There was another peak aside from Lookout that had been discussed, at least among skiers if not the mountain. I realize Lookout is already a separate peak from the already-developed ones.

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

There was another peak aside from Lookout that had been discussed, at least among skiers if not the mountain. I realize Lookout is already a separate peak from the already-developed ones.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but besides Little WF, WF and Lookout what other peak is there to expand to that would make sense?

 

[polski]

I'll throw a dark horse out there and say Crotched. It already has good management with great attitude -- be among the first to open, blow incredible amounts of snow (into Presidents Day week this year), allow skiing 'til 3 a.m., etc etc. They have a little room to grow on the current main "West" mountain, like finally reconquering the summit, and if they max that out there's lots of relatively easy expansion opportunity into old Crotched East. They seem to be developing a solid rep for glades/sidecountry at a time when there's growing interest in that. It's not a huge mountain -- 1000' vert from that summit -- but in an era of high gas prices, it'll be a plus to be (along with Wachusett) the biggest ski area so close to Boston.

Saddleback has much more expansion potential in terms of vertical/acreage/challenging skiing, and from what I saw the last time I was there I like what the new ownership has done so far, but I wonder if the plans aren't a bit overly ambitious. Seems they can roll out phases as the market demands so they'll probably avoid getting overextended (which did in the old Crotched, in the last real estate bust) but I wouldn't be surprised if their actual growth winds up being more modest than currently envisioned.

Maybe MRG will get an honorable mention if they ever acquire the 20th Hole.

 

[kcyanks1]

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but besides Little WF, WF and Lookout what other peak is there to expand to that would make sense?

Well then I was wrong, I guess I just thought I remembered something about their being 2 peaks to looker's right of the Slides. I could be (and seemingly am) mistaken. I haven't been to Whiteface in a while, so my memory of the mountains surrounding where there are currently trails isn't oo good.

 

[kcyanks1]

Well then I was wrong, I guess I just thought I remembered something about their being 2 peaks to looker's right of the Slides. I could be (and seemingly am) mistaken. I haven't been to Whiteface in a while, so my memory of the mountains surrounding where there are currently trails isn't oo good.

Ok, so what I was thinking of is what was referred to as the "Tree Island Pod". Perhaps it is not on a new peak, and I just made that assumption.

Edit: So Tree Island Pod appears to be on Whiteface Mountain. [http://www.vinsweb.org/assets/pdf/ORDA2004.pdf]

 

[hardline]

Stowe will by far and away eclipsed Stratton as the "glitzy" resort in the East.

stowe cleintel will deffinatly change in the next 10 years but there is nothing that is going to change at mansfield. they can't add anything. the best terrain is not visible from the lifts so people have no idea how to get there. you will never see an expanision into the notch. it is what it is and that one of the things that i love about it.

 

[riverc0il]

In VT, I think Okemo/Sugarbush/Stowe all may see significant growth

The thread is about which resort will be the most improved, not see the most growth

Saddleback and Magic are both strong contenders. I don't think Jay will see the West Bowl expansion within ten years, just my guess. We will see how they do with the Hotel One and new base area but I would be surprised that expansion would get rammed through as quick as the Hotel plans were (which are much more required due to aging infrastructure, increased skier visits, unification of services, and the need for increased bed base). Many folks may consider Burke to be the most improved if things go as planned. Burke will at least be very much on the map by then if Ginn Resorts build up as proposed, for better or for worse. And Cannon gets a nod in the "for better or for worse" category even though I believe it is the latter, not the former.

 

[shadyjay]

An earlier post in this thread suggested that Sugarbush would see a terrain increase. I don't think this is gonna happen, primarily since they are on leased land from the USFS and any terrain expansion is next to impossible. Prime example is comparing their glades with those at Jay Peak. The amount of clearing that can be done is greatly restricted, from what I have heard.

I would think that Smuggs would put in some new lifts as time goes on... really surprised they haven't yet. Okemo expanding more? Possibly... is the gondola even still in their master plan? I think the Jay Peak expansion will go through soon. And for those in CT hoping the 'Ridge will reopen.... ha... good luck with that. I see the chances of Shady Glen snowboards-only area opening somewhere in VT being greater... :razz:

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

Ok, so what I was thinking of is what was referred to as the "Tree Island Pod". Perhaps it is not on a new peak, and I just made that assumption.

Edit: So Tree Island Pod appears to be on Whiteface Mountain. [http://www.vinsweb.org/assets/pdf/ORDA2004.pdf]

That was the orginal name for the Lookout mt. expansion. I can see how you got confused.

 

[kcyanks1]

That was the orginal name for the Lookout mt. expansion. I can see how you got confused.

The figure on p. 12 of this pdf (http://www.vinsweb.org/assets/pdf/ORDA2004.pdf) seems to indicate that they are different -- the Tree Island Pod is somewhere in the vicinity of the Slides on Whiteface Mountain and the Lookout Pod is on Lookout Mountain.. Am I looking at this wrong? Sorry for any confusion.

 

[twinplanx]

Lookout is the other peak.



I read somewhere that Gore's limit is 40 miles.



I agree with you, even diehard Gore fans have said as much on SKIADK. That said, to answer the original question I think Gore will be the most changed place in 10 years. The trail expansion will go down to the Ski Bowl where there is a ton of new development planned. Residents will have a lift they can walk to, which is unique to the ADK Park. They are also planning an 18 hole golf course and a train hookup from Saratoge. People in the NYC area will be able to get train service right to Gore.

ORDA actually took money out of the Lookout project and put in into Gore's expansion. I've heard that money has been found to take it's place, but to my mind it shows ORDA's deep commentment to making Gore's expansion work. Gore will be a very different place, no longer a day trip, with a hard core local base. It will be a destination resort in the Northeast. If I was a Gore regular I'm not sure if I would like that or not.

Having recently shared my discovery of Gore w/ some friends I must admit I have mixed feelings about these plans. Considering the latest trends(economy gas $) any area serviced by any sort of mass transit will see major growth...

 

[trtaylor]

Certainly good points, though Saddleback is essentially at the same disadvantage geographically as Sugarloaf. I guess my feelings are that with the lakes right there for summer use, the unlimited snowmaking potential and plans already approved, a lot will happen there. In my opinion, Saddleback has more year round appeal than SR and SL. I don't expect it to ever garner the skier visits of SR, but I do think they have the potential to get in the same range as SL.

Yep, the Rangeley area is awesome. Saddleback will expand, but the entire 10 year plan will probably not be realized. But as aggressive as that was, that would not be a surprise.

The current real estate slump has hurt them a bit, though. Construction of condos has stopped for now. Crew was laid off several months ago.

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

The figure on p. 12 of this pdf (http://www.vinsweb.org/assets/pdf/ORDA2004.pdf) seems to indicate that they are different -- the Tree Island Pod is somewhere in the vicinity of the Slides on Whiteface Mountain and the Lookout Pod is on Lookout Mountain.. Am I looking at this wrong? Sorry for any confusion.

When you look at the trail map http://www.whiteface.com/newsite/onmtn/zoommap/zoommap.htm
to the right it says proposed terrain, with 4 trails, 1 lift and 60 acres of glades. 2 trails have been cut, the long intermediate and the expert one that runs next to the lift line. The plan for this off season is to install the triple chair, put in snow making for the 2 cut trails and open them, along with the 60 acres of new glades, this comming season. The other 2 trails are slated for the following season.

The orginal name for this project was the Tree Island Pod which is on Lookout Mt. Now they just call it Lookout Mt.

 

[deadheadskier]

I would think that Smuggs would put in some new lifts as time goes on... really surprised they haven't yet.

There has been talk for awhile about a HSQ or Six Pack for Sterling. I could see that happening. Doubtful they put one up Madonna and if they did, loyalists would be PISSED. Next to the MRG single and Castlerock, that lift might be the most loved old school lift in the east.

The challenge for smuggs would be increasing trail acreage to support the increased uphill capacity. They really don't have any room to do that except for on Morse. That said, the area above the lifts on Morse is a Beech stand and Bear habitat, so no expansion will ever occur there.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

When you look at the trail map http://www.whiteface.com/newsite/onmtn/zoommap/zoommap.htm
to the right it says proposed terrain, with 4 trails, 1 lift and 60 acres of glades. 2 trails have been cut, the long intermediate and the expert one that runs next to the lift line. The plan for this off season is to install the triple chair, put in snow making for the 2 cut trails and open them, along with the 60 acres of new glades, this comming season. The other 2 trails are slated for the following season.

The orginal name for this project was the Tree Island Pod which is on Lookout Mt. Now they just call it Lookout Mt.

Is the Tree Island Pod really on Lookout Mtn though? I know it's closer than anything else at Whiteface, but i"m not sure it's really on that mountain. I think this is just some marketing more than anything else - just like how the actual name of Skye Peak at Killington is Bear Mtn. - go figure.

Check it out:

Note that the top of the Lookout Triple will end up on the NE flank of Whiteface Mtn, very close to where the shelter is on the map. Lookout Mtn is close by, but not technically relevant to that area of terrain. The "Lookout Pod" referenced in the VINS report was unlikely to ever be seriously on the table - the 25 mile limit would make it a fruitless exercise.

As for the original topic of this thread...

ME - Got to be Saddleback. It looks like the Berry family is taking a slow and steady approach. No $50MM condo hotels. No huge splashy expansions in a single season. Just building things up piece by piece. As others have pointed out, the Rangely area is hugely attractive - how many ski areas in the NE are within shouting distance of a lake like that? Whiteface and Sunapee are the only ones that come to mind, and both of them have a robust 4 season community. Now that the Berry's have made nice nice with the AMC, the only obstacle in their path is money and the competition. I think their geography provides them with an advantage - yeah it's a hike, but it's "real", it's laid back and provides 4 season value. Given that they still have a lot of t-bars and an old double as their primary lift, you'll see lots of improvements here.

NH - My vote goes to Cannon. Eventually, Mittersill will be integrated into the area, effectively increasing skiable terrain by 50% for the majority of Cannon skiers who aren't willing to make the hike today. Wouldn't be surprised to see more development to either side of the tramline as well.

VT - Burke or Jay. I think West Bowl will happen, eventually, and the base is almost certainly going to see a complete renovation. Burke will see an East Bowl chair and almost certainly expansion into the drainage to skier's left of the main face terrain. Most of the change at Stowe has already happened. The only new stuff on the horizon there is a replacement of the Mansfield Lodge and the old double chair. Stratton, Okemo, and Mt. Snow are close to being built out from a footprint standpoint - they will just see further lift upgrades (mostly at Mt Snow), some snowmaking improvements, and lots of lodging. I wouldn't discount Sugarbush entirely. While most of LP is on USFS land, the vast majority of ME (everything below Rim Run from the top of Exterminator/bottom of Black Diamond) is on private land. There will be more lodging at the base of LP that extends it towards SB Village, a replacement of the Valley House double with a triple or quad, a new skier services center, and a replacement for the Village double. Most if not all of this is likely to happen in the next 4-5 years. In the longer term, a wholesale snowmaking overhaul (need to connect to two systems), and expanded terrain (in filling at both mountains, more official glades into Slide Brook, and - tantalizingly - the Upper Inverness Pod) are certainly on the table if business volume can support it.

NY - Gore with the interconnect and access into North Creek will be big. Whiteface and perhaps Belleayre will be close behind with their planned lift and trail expansions.