10 years from now.....

[from_the_NEK]

The thread is about which resort will be the most improved, not see the most growth

Saddleback and Magic are both strong contenders. I don't think Jay will see the West Bowl expansion within ten years, just my guess. We will see how they do with the Hotel One and new base area but I would be surprised that expansion would get rammed through as quick as the Hotel plans were (which are much more required due to aging infrastructure, increased skier visits, unification of services, and the need for increased bed base). Many folks may consider Burke to be the most improved if things go as planned. Burke will at least be very much on the map by then if Ginn Resorts build up as proposed, for better or for worse. And Cannon gets a nod in the "for better or for worse" category even though I believe it is the latter, not the former.

You probably have better information about the West Bowl at Jay than I do, however, if the Canadian Dollar stays as strong as it is, I think Jay will have the resources to move forward with its expansion (which I believe will be a big improvement) sooner rather than later. They really need the expanded terrain in the West Bowl to start spreading out the crowds on weekends (the powder barely makes it till noon on a Saturday). I agree that the Hotel One development/Tram Lodge renovations will be a measuring stick to determine how quickly things progress. For those of you unfamiliar with the expansion plans, this is from their Real Estate website:

Go West!
The West Bowl! West of Ullr’s Dream trail and beyond Beyond Beaver Pond glade lies some of the most beautiful intermediate terrain on Jay Peak. The West Bowl is 250 acres and over 1200 vertical feet of land that gets more snow than any other part of our mountain. The sun shines on this snow-filled bowl from morning ‘til late afternoon, December through April, and the bowl is in the most wind-protected portion of the Jay forest.
We have designed a plan for 18 trails and glades served by up to three lifts. The West Bowl will also have its own base area that will include slope-side lodging, cafeteria, rental services, a snowsports school, and more. The West Bowl plan will take a decade to fully implement but progress will be evident soon.

This map was created by me a while back based on the Jay Peak Resort Expansion Map that used to be on their website:

[/IMG]

Burke and Saddleback are in the same boat together. They both have big plans but "difficult" locations.
Burke's owner has very deep pockets, IMO much deeper than Saddlebacks owner (see website for details on how much Ginn is spending on other resort development :-o http://www.clubandresortrealty.com/ginn_sur_mer.php
What Burke needs most is a high speed quad to the summit (improvement). After that I don't really want to see Burke turn into Disneyworld. Here is an example of Ginn Resort built on TOP of a mountain ridge in North Carolina:

This may get interesting.
I still believe that the development that is going to occur at Burke is going to be marketed to Ginn's current Florida/SE US property owners as a cool place to play golf (once the Jack Nicolas course is built) in the summer away from the Southern summer heat. The ski resort will just be an additional "off season" attraction.
Saddleback has a slight advantage in the shear amount of terrain that they can expand into. I still need to get there before it is built up.

 

[4aprice]

There has been talk for awhile about a HSQ or Six Pack for Sterling. I could see that happening. Doubtful they put one up Madonna and if they did, loyalists would be PISSED. Next to the MRG single and Castlerock, that lift might be the most loved old school lift in the east.

The challenge for smuggs would be increasing trail acreage to support the increased uphill capacity. They really don't have any room to do that except for on Morse. That said, the area above the lifts on Morse is a Beech stand and Bear habitat, so no expansion will ever occur there.

That makes alot of sense. I always wondered why Smuggs did not put in a lift either from the village or above the current village lift to improve access to mid Madonna. It seems like the perfect place for a Gondola. My summation was that the face of Morse sloping toward the Madonna/Sterling complex was too rocky. Whiteface Peak to the left of Morse has always looked enticing as well.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ

 

[Tin Woodsman]

There has been talk for awhile about a HSQ or Six Pack for Sterling. I could see that happening. Doubtful they put one up Madonna and if they did, loyalists would be PISSED. Next to the MRG single and Castlerock, that lift might be the most loved old school lift in the east.

The challenge for smuggs would be increasing trail acreage to support the increased uphill capacity. They really don't have any room to do that except for on Morse. That said, the area above the lifts on Morse is a Beech stand and Bear habitat, so no expansion will ever occur there.

Really? I had heard that a lift between Morse and Madonna to the real summit of Morse Mtn. (Morse lift goes only to 2100' whereas summit is at 3390') was possibly on the table in the long-term plan.

 

[deadheadskier]

. Whiteface Peak to the left of Morse has always looked enticing as well.

A number of my friends have skinned up Whiteface from the mud city side and say the terrain is pretty sick.

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

Is the Tree Island Pod really on Lookout Mtn though? I know it's closer than anything else at Whiteface, but i"m not sure it's really on that mountain. I think this is just some marketing more than anything else - just like how the actual name of Skye Peak at Killington is Bear Mtn. - go figure.

When I look up at the cut trails they look to be on Lookout to me. When I hiked up there it seemed to be on Lookout. Beyond that I really don't know, but I don't really care because regardless of there technical geographic location the new trails and glades will be a great addition.

The shelter which you referred to is the old Marble Mt. (as it was known then) lodge. It is being renovated and will be put into use.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

Really? I had heard that a lift between Morse and Madonna to the real summit of Morse Mtn. (Morse lift goes only to 2100' whereas summit is at 3390') was possibly on the table in the long-term plan.

The summit of Smugglers notch(Madonna) is 3640 feet

 

[Tin Woodsman]

The summit of Smugglers notch(Madonna) is 3640 feet

That is correct, but has nothing to do with my reference to next door Morse Mtn.

 

[deadheadskier]

Really? I had heard that a lift between Morse and Madonna to the real summit of Morse Mtn. (Morse lift goes only to 2100' whereas summit is at 3390') was possibly on the table in the long-term plan.

hmmm, not sure about the madonna side of Morse. That could be possible. All I know is I took a ski area management class at UVM and at the time smuggs was looking to extend the lifts and terrain on Morse to it's summit, but there was a beech stand within 500 yards, so it was a no go. we actually hiked up in there for class to look at the trees and see all the claw marks on them from the bears. The Madonna side might be far enough away to expand though.

ski area expansion is tough business with all the environmentalists out there. If I had it my way, I'd have a gondola connecting from the base of Spruce Peak un and over to the base of Madonna and ski trails down the back side of Madonna to create the most massive ski experience in the east.

...but that's just me

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

ski area expansion is tough business with all the environmentalists out there. If I had it my way, I'd have a gondola connecting from the base of Spruce Peak un and over to the base of Madonna and ski trails down the back side of Madonna to create the most massive ski experience in the east.

...but that's just me

You can say that again. This little bird held up the Lookout expansion for years. http://www.whiteface.com/newsite/bicknell.php
Work still can't be done at Whiteface above 2,500 feet until Aug. 1 because it might disturb it's nesting. :roll:

 

[kingslug]

Belleayre, if they go through with the expansion will probably have the most dramatic expansion of all the resorts in the east. It will go from the little mountain that could.....to a pretty big resort. Which is probably why Hunter and Windham are compaining lately.

 

[St. Jerry]

I'd say Gore will change the most. Hopefully for the better.

 

[SkiingInABlueDream]

Wildcat Cannon Loon Attish & Waterville will fall under common ownership which will buy up the entire WMNF and develop every 4k'er into Euro-style liftsprawl including gondolas over 93, 203 & 16.

The hiker in me just went uke:

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

Belleayre, if they go through with the expansion will probably have the most dramatic expansion of all the resorts in the east. It will go from the little mountain that could.....to a pretty big resort. Which is probably why Hunter and Windham are compaining lately.

When you look at the expansions the ski areas run by NYS are undertaking it's hard to blame the private ones for being resentful.

That said, I think the better NYS areas become the more ski business will stay in state and that's a good thing for the state economy.

 

[JPTracker]

I don't think Jay will see the West Bowl expansion within ten years, just my guess. We will see how they do with the Hotel One and new base area but I would be surprised that expansion would get rammed through as quick as the Hotel plans were (which are much more required due to aging infrastructure, increased skier visits, unification of services, and the need for increased bed base).

I agree on not seeing the West Bowl for another ten years. But as far as "rammed through as quick as the Hotel plans were", back in 1999 when the Flyer replaced the double chair the base of the Flyer was moved up the mountain to it current location from the old location of the double, which is now the demo shop, to leave room for the Hotel. That was nine years ago. I don't consider that being rammed through and is a sign of how truly slow things move at Jay.

 

[kcyanks1]

When you look at the trail map http://www.whiteface.com/newsite/onmtn/zoommap/zoommap.htm
to the right it says proposed terrain, with 4 trails, 1 lift and 60 acres of glades. 2 trails have been cut, the long intermediate and the expert one that runs next to the lift line. The plan for this off season is to install the triple chair, put in snow making for the 2 cut trails and open them, along with the 60 acres of new glades, this comming season. The other 2 trails are slated for the following season.

The orginal name for this project was the Tree Island Pod which is on Lookout Mt. Now they just call it Lookout Mt.

You clearly know more than me about Whiteface, so I won't try to push the point about Tree Island != Lookout beyond this post. If you look at the PDF I posted before, there is this image:

http://www.vinsweb.org/assets/pdf/ORDA2004.pdf

This seems to show that the Tree Island Pod is to looker's right of the current trails on Whiteface Mountain, in the vicinity of the slides, whereas the Lookout Pod is even further to looker's right (presumably on Lookout Mtn, but Tin suggested maybe not). While I seem to have been completely wrong about 2 new peaks, this at least has the idea of 2 separate considered expansion areas. Seems like they are only going with 1 of the two -- Lookout but not Tree Island.

Maybe I'm reading the picture wrong though or the picture is based on misinformation, and it's really all the same thing.

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

You clearly know more than me about Whiteface, so I won't try to push the point about Tree Island != Lookout beyond this post. If you look at the PDF I posted before, there is this image:

http://www.vinsweb.org/assets/pdf/ORDA2004.pdf

This seems to show that the Tree Island Pod is to looker's right of the current trails on Whiteface Mountain, in the vicinity of the slides, whereas the Lookout Pod is even further to looker's right (presumably on Lookout Mtn, but Tin suggested maybe not). While I seem to have been completely wrong about 2 new peaks, this at least has the idea of 2 separate considered expansion areas. Seems like they are only going with 1 of the two -- Lookout but not Tree Island.

Maybe I'm reading the picture wrong though or the picture is based on misinformation, and it's really all the same thing.

I gotta tell ya, I can't understand that. There is a loop around the lodge on top, but that loop looks hugh.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

hmmm, not sure about the madonna side of Morse. That could be possible. All I know is I took a ski area management class at UVM and at the time smuggs was looking to extend the lifts and terrain on Morse to it's summit, but there was a beech stand within 500 yards, so it was a no go. we actually hiked up in there for class to look at the trees and see all the claw marks on them from the bears. The Madonna side might be far enough away to expand though.

ski area expansion is tough business with all the environmentalists out there. If I had it my way, I'd have a gondola connecting from the base of Spruce Peak un and over to the base of Madonna and ski trails down the back side of Madonna to create the most massive ski experience in the east.

...but that's just me

The beauty of the Mansfield Massif is that most of this is really already possible, as long as you're willing to pay the exit fee on Rt. 108.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

You clearly know more than me about Whiteface, so I won't try to push the point about Tree Island != Lookout beyond this post. If you look at the PDF I posted before, there is this image:

http://www.vinsweb.org/assets/pdf/ORDA2004.pdf

This seems to show that the Tree Island Pod is to looker's right of the current trails on Whiteface Mountain, in the vicinity of the slides, whereas the Lookout Pod is even further to looker's right (presumably on Lookout Mtn, but Tin suggested maybe not). While I seem to have been completely wrong about 2 new peaks, this at least has the idea of 2 separate considered expansion areas. Seems like they are only going with 1 of the two -- Lookout but not Tree Island.

Maybe I'm reading the picture wrong though or the picture is based on misinformation, and it's really all the same thing.

Kenny -

The simple answer is that the Tree Island Pod on that map was renamed the Lookout Pod, presumably for marketing reasons. I'm not sure how seriously the terrain covered by the "Lookout Pod" on that map was considered for expansion. The 25 mile limit would have had to be lifted/modified in order to go forward with both expansions, so I suspect it was more of a dream than anything else.

 

[deadheadskier]

The beauty of the Mansfield Massif is that most of this is really already possible, as long as you're willing to pay the exit fee on Rt. 108.

Certainly is. The birthday bowls off the back of Spruce might be my favorite skiing in New England. As is the terrain going back towards Mansfield side. Definitely worth the long flat ski out on 108

 

[kcyanks1]

Kenny -

The simple answer is that the Tree Island Pod on that map was renamed the Lookout Pod, presumably for marketing reasons. I'm not sure how seriously the terrain covered by the "Lookout Pod" on that map was considered for expansion. The 25 mile limit would have had to be lifted/modified in order to go forward with both expansions, so I suspect it was more of a dream than anything else.

Thanks.. That map does seem to be drawn poorly, especially since even HPD finds it hard to follow. It flattens everything out too much making it mighty confusing (at least to me).