All For One: Effect on the Northeast ski industry?

[eastcoastpowderhound]

Shawnee? And while Wildcat is not in Maine, it certainly services much of Maine. Saddleback for your larger ski area option with a cheap season pass. Those are all respectable mid- to large ski areas with cheaper season passes. Don't like the Loaf prices? Not too much further to Saddleback.

An adult season pass to shawnee is $639, midweek is $450...and while sneakin to the Peak is fun for night skiing, it pales in comparison to the loaf or the river in every way measureable. They don't open until just before christmas, close before the end of march, stop blowing snow by Pres week, and the snow surface is always harder and has more water content than the snow at SR or SL...yes, shawnee is closer to the coast and right on a pond, but they also don't blow snow as often as SL and SR. For all of you who keep saying higher pass prices will allow for more development in infrastructure etc...Shawnee hasn't done much of anything for decades...same lodge that was there when I started skiing in 1975, same triple chair that's been around since 1980...no significant upgrades in decades. Tough to go from the loaf to the peak just to save a few $$...but, we still don't know what SL and SR will do for pass pricing...there may be a pretty good deal coming down the pipe.

 

[eastcoastpowderhound]

Here's a point...and I'm not talking specifically about anyone here.

One thing about deal hunters is that they will not be burned twice if they wind up on the short end of any deal financially. Since you brought it up, are these "loyal" deal hunters going to come back to a resort that sells them a cheap pass in advance for $400 but then doesn't open enough to make them think they got their money's worth because of a crappy winter? No way and they would complain to anyone who would listen to them about how they got screwed and about how they will never buy a pass up front again.

I haven't heard anyone complaining that they didn't get their money's worth out of an A41 pass yet...have you? How much more complaining do you thing the folks shelling out 1K for a pass would do in the same scenario?

 

[threecy]

For all of you who keep saying higher pass prices will allow for more development in infrastructure etc...Shawnee hasn't done much of anything for decades...

Um, what do you base that on? It doesn't look like an aniquated ski area to me.

Don't forget that Sunday River/Sugarloaf don't have the night skiing Shawnee has.

 

[threecy]

I haven't heard anyone complaining that they didn't get their money's worth out of an A41 pass yet...have you?

I have and it was a good thing - in fact some of the people who complained about it to me ended up paying for a pass at an independent ski area after dissatisfaction with the subpar aspects of the A41 pass this past season.

 

[JimG.]

I haven't heard anyone complaining that they didn't get their money's worth out of an A41 pass yet...have you? How much more complaining do you thing the folks shelling out 1K for a pass would do in the same scenario?

I have...dmc from here at AZ bought one and wound up not using it much because they didn't open early/close late anymore. So he decided that it was a waste and that he would never buy one again. I'm talking early as in mid-November and late as in mid-May.

Personally, I would have advised him to keep the money based on what was happening with ASC at that time, about 2-3 years ago. It was clear they were abandoning the extended season and dmc wound up paying for a pass when Hunter was open most of that time frame anyway. He only covered about 2 more weekends of skiing anyway with the A41.

 

[eastcoastpowderhound]

Um, what do you base that on? It doesn't look like an aniquated ski area to me.

Don't forget that Sunday River/Sugarloaf don't have the night skiing Shawnee has.

I base that on having skied there since 1975...and the view from my kitchen and living room is Shawnee Peak. I know they have night skiing...I race there on Thu nights. I'm not knocking the Peak, its a fun place, great family hill, etc...just saying that it doesn't stack up to SR and SL in a number of ways and if you've been skiing SL like bigbog has, it would be tough to consider the Peak as an alternative...and their pass price was as high as the Gold A41 pass.

 

[eastcoastpowderhound]

I have and it was a good thing - in fact some of the people who complained about it to me ended up paying for a pass at an independent ski area after dissatisfaction with the subpar aspects of the A41 pass this past season.

What were the "subpar aspects?"

 

[eastcoastpowderhound]

I have...dmc from here at AZ bought one and wound up not using it much because they didn't open early/close late anymore. So he decided that it was a waste and that he would never buy one again. I'm talking early as in mid-November and late as in mid-May.

Personally, I would have advised him to keep the money based on what was happening with ASC at that time, about 2-3 years ago. It was clear they were abandoning the extended season and dmc wound up paying for a pass when Hunter was open most of that time frame anyway. He only covered about 2 more weekends of skiing anyway with the A41.

What was the price of a Hunter pass...and how much terrain does that Hunter pass buy you compared to what he had avail to him with the A41. I don't get to KL much, but SR and SL have been opening as early in Nov as mother nature has allowed and they both extended their season to April 29th due to the snowfall. KL has still been one of the first resorts in the east to open every year and one of the last to close...so how's that a bad deal when you've paid an affordable price for a pass? Would you want to pay an extra $600 for two or 3 more weeks of limited terrain skiing? Look at Powdr...more expensive pass prices, even shorter posted season! More for less...is that somehow a better deal that A41?

 

[JimG.]

What was the price of a Hunter pass...and how much terrain does that Hunter pass buy you compared to what he had avail to him with the A41. I don't get to KL much, but SR and SL have been opening as early in Nov as mother nature has allowed and they both extended their season to April 29th due to the snowfall. KL has still been one of the first resorts in the east to open every year and one of the last to close...so how's that a bad deal when you've paid an affordable price for a pass? Would you want to pay an extra $600 for two or 3 more weeks of limited terrain skiing? Look at Powdr...more expensive pass prices, even shorter posted season! More for less...is that somehow a better deal that A41?

Well, since dmc lives in Hunter it's certainly more cost effective for him to ski there. The price of the Hunter pass is $699 with an October 15 commitment date. If I recall, we started skiing at Hunter about 2 days after K opened and Hunter closed about 4/20, maybe 3 weeks before K that season.

So, he paid $299 for what amounted to 3 weeks of potential skiing. And he would certainly have paid the $600 you would not recommend spending after travel, food, and lodging considerations were taken into account.

A total waste.

As for the better deal part, that cannot be answered until the snow flies. You simply cannot make that judgement call on July 11.

 

[eastcoastpowderhound]

Well, since dmc lives in Hunter it's certainly more cost effective for him to ski there. The price of the Hunter pass is $699 with an October 15 commitment date. If I recall, we started skiing at Hunter about 2 days after K opened and Hunter closed about 4/20, maybe 3 weeks before K that season.

So, he paid $299 for what amounted to 3 weeks of potential skiing. And he would certainly have paid the $600 you would not recommend spending after travel, food, and lodging considerations were taken into account.

A total waste.

As for the better deal part, that cannot be answered until the snow flies. You simply cannot make that judgement call on July 11.

No, he paid $299 for an entire season of skiing at KL...you can't call the pass a bad deal for him just because he chose not to use it for the months of Dec, Jan, Feb, March, and April! Its a pretty nutty gamble to buy a SEASON pass at a resort hoping you'll get tons of days before thanksgiving and after may 1st...we don't live in the artic. Caveat emptor.
Or, using some of the logic I've seen before on this post....he paid $299 for 3 weeks...or $100/week...or $14.29 a day...wow, sounds like a great deal. So which one was it, a great deal, or a bad idea from the inception? Its ridiculous to claim that he got hosed by the pass deal.
My judgement call is based on what they have posted for their operating schedule and the cost of the passes compared to what has happened in the past few seasons and what those passes cost...that's the info avail at this time, don't see why I can't make a comparison.

 

[JimG.]

No, he paid $299 for an entire season of skiing at KL...you can't call the pass a bad deal for him just because he chose not to use it for the months of Dec, Jan, Feb, March, and April! Its a pretty nutty gamble to buy a SEASON pass at a resort hoping you'll get tons of days before thanksgiving and after may 1st...we don't live in the artic. Caveat emptor.

You just debated yourself into a corner...how can you scream about the lost extended season now that pass prices have been increased yet use the same extended season as an argument against buying the $299 pass as a "nutty gamble"? And he didn't expect a ton of days, maybe 6-8. That's nutty? Well then isn't it nutty for the ski area to stay open late? And then you serve it up with a "caveat emptor".

I'm using the same caveat emptor argument against those who are now complaining about the higher pass prices. And you're using it as an argument against buying the cheap pass for extended season duty only. Frankly, it's the only use for the A41 I would have myself.

 

[JimG.]

My judgement call is based on what they have posted for their operating schedule and the cost of the passes compared to what has happened in the past few seasons and what those passes cost...that's the info avail at this time, don't see why I can't make a comparison.

So the quality of the snow makes no difference and does not enter into the equation?

We're different...all I care about at a ski area is the quality of the skiing product. Show me your summer stash up there that allows you to make that judgement call now.

I need to make some turns.

 

[eastcoastpowderhound]

You just debated yourself into a corner...how can you scream about the lost extended season now that pass prices have been increased yet use the same extended season as an argument against buying the $299 pass as a "nutty gamble"? And he didn't expect a ton of days, maybe 6-8. That's nutty? Well then isn't it nutty for the ski area to stay open late? And then you serve it up with a "caveat emptor".

I'm using the same caveat emptor argument against those who are now complaining about the higher pass prices. And you're using it as an argument against buying the cheap pass for extended season duty only. Frankly, it's the only use for the A41 I would have myself.

Go back and read the posts again...I was comparing the length of season KL has had the last few years and the price of the pass the last few years compared to the announced pass prices and season length...next years pass is going to cost more for a shorter season. There seems to be a feeling in this thread...and you certainly make the point that if skiers are willing to pay more, they'll get more...I'm trying to point out that, at this time that does not appear to be the case at KL...at least in terms of length of season...maybe they'll install heated seats on all the chairs to make up for the shorter season. In another post, on a different topic...dmc complaining that he didn't get his value's worth and the A41 was a bad deal, I'm saying that you can't buy a pass for $299, not use it at all through the bulk of what can reasonably be considered ski season in New england and then complain that it was a raw deal because he wasn't able to use it in May. You spend a lot of time blasting the A41 pass as bad...then you come out and say you never really would have used one anyway...perfect.

 

[eastcoastpowderhound]

So the quality of the snow makes no difference and does not enter into the equation?

We're different...all I care about at a ski area is the quality of the skiing product. Show me your summer stash up there that allows you to make that judgement call now.

I need to make some turns.

Quality of the snow remains to be seen...my comp was based on operating schedules and pass prices not variables that aren't available to measure now, just days open for price paid.
I'm a big fan of quality product on the hill...aside from geography its the reason I primarily ski at sunday river...when mother nature isn't helping out, imo they make the best snow around...and lets not start a "who has the best terrain" argument...this is a northeast forum, we're all geographically challenged when it comes to terrain.

 

[JimG.]

Go back and read the posts again...I was comparing the length of season KL has had the last few years and the price of the pass the last few years compared to the announced pass prices and season length...next years pass is going to cost more for a shorter season. There seems to be a feeling in this thread...and you certainly make the point that if skiers are willing to pay more, they'll get more...I'm trying to point out that, at this time that does not appear to be the case at KL...at least in terms of length of season...maybe they'll install heated seats on all the chairs to make up for the shorter season. In another post, on a different topic...dmc complaining that he didn't get his value's worth and the A41 was a bad deal, I'm saying that you can't buy a pass for $299, not use it at all through the bulk of what can reasonably be considered ski season in New england and then complain that it was a raw deal because he wasn't able to use it in May. You spend a lot of time blasting the A41 pass as bad...then you come out and say you never really would have used one anyway...perfect.

dmc never said it was a raw deal, and he never blamed the mountain because he bought it. He said it was a waste of money for him. And it was.

Me? $299 for a season pass at K? Are you crazy dude, I'd be all over that in a heartbeat...if my geographic circumstances were different. I'm not driving 3 hours each way to ski there when Hunter is an hour and 15 minutes away from where I live. I never would really use one because I don't go to K much. I went more when it had the extended season, usually once early season and then 5-6 days in May through Memorial day.

Those days are gone, so no, I would not use an A41 now.

And I'm blasting it because it created unrealistic price expectations in the industry that may still turn out to be harmful to the industry as a whole. That doesn't mean I wouldn't buy one if I had the reason to do so.

 

[JimG.]

Quality of the snow remains to be seen...my comp was based on operating schedules and pass prices not variables that aren't available to measure now, just days open for price paid.
I'm a big fan of quality product on the hill...aside from geography its the reason I primarily ski at sunday river...when mother nature isn't helping out, imo they make the best snow around...and lets not start a "who has the best terrain" argument...this is a northeast forum, we're all geographically challenged when it comes to terrain.

Holy crap! We seem to agree here. We can't have that.

Except I love my eastern terrain and do not consider myself geographically challenged.

 

[eastcoastpowderhound]

Holy crap! We seem to agree here. We can't have that.

Except I love my eastern terrain and do not consider myself geographically challenged.

Damn, we'd better find something to dispute quickly! Okay, I like my eastern terrrain...but if you moved J-hole right next to sunday river...or any other eastern resort, I'd be all j-hole all the time...or alta, or the bird or...hell, even vail...that's what I mean by geographically challenged.

 

[JimG.]

Damn, we'd better find something to dispute quickly! Okay, I like my eastern terrrain...but if you moved J-hole right next to sunday river...or any other eastern resort, I'd be all j-hole all the time...or alta, or the bird or...hell, even vail...that's what I mean by geographically challenged.

I know exactly what you meant. I don't think those western resorts you mention would ski as well with eastern snow though.

There is alot of terrain in the east that is unskiable with eastern snowfall, but if we had western style winters here I think you might change your opinion.

 

[MadPadraic]

Are you sure that the folks who bought these cheap passes then turned around and gave the savings back at the bar or cafeteria? Or is it more likely that these bargain hunters brown bagged it and spent nothing at the resort?

As for the money collected saving the early season, that's why mountains all offer season passes with discounts for early commitment, certainly not unique to Killington or ASC. It gives them working capital to start the season. Whoever said that to you was blowing smoke and toeing the company line of that being the financial windfall of the program and how it benefitted skiers.

What ASC did was akin to foreign companies dumping product cheap on the American market...they could have gotten alot more for those passes with little loss of skier visits.

To me, that's bad business. If it weren't, wouldn't ASC still be king?

No, ASC had very high interest rates on their substantial debt. Their balance sheet wouldn't allow them to be king. Their pricing structure was an attempt to maximize profits just like every other major ski company that I know of. Without actually knowing the demand curve, we can only speculate on whether or not it was a good pricing strategy, but it's very likely that '08 total pass sales at recently former ASC resorts will be far lower than the number of A41 sold last year.

 

[MadPadraic]

If the $400 pass is bought in the summer, they won't fret as much over $50 to put jr in daycare for the day at the mtn...but they sure won't shell out $60 for a ticket and another $50 for daycare on top...another example of how getting folks to the resort will lead to spillover revenue.



I'd say skier visits are more likely to increase with lower pass pricing than with higher pass pricing.

Taking a wild shot in the dark, and comparing this to every other industry, I'd say your right :grin:

As for the timing issue of purchases, that's a very good point that I hadn't considered before.