Day tickets going through the roof in Vermont

[boston_e]

It might attract new skiers to THEIR properties, but not new people to the sport. Skiing requires a heavy initial investment. My guess is very few people just hop into the sport with a pass.

Now if Stowe offered a day pass + lesson + rentals for say $150 (still expensive), that might get more people to give the sport a try.

But for Joe flatlander who knows very little and looks at the website and sees it's gonna be $150+ rentals + lesson on top. That's likely a nonstarter. And they may not know about the affordable feeder hills.

Agree - I think the cheap season passes probably encourages the occasional skier to ski more often (adding to the crowding issues we see) but may not help attract first timers to the sport.

 

[cdskier]

It might attract new skiers to THEIR properties, but not new people to the sport. Skiing requires a heavy initial investment. My guess is very few people just hop into the sport with a pass.

Now if Stowe offered a day pass + lesson + rentals for say $150 (still expensive), that might get more people to give the sport a try.

But for Joe flatlander who knows very little and looks at the website and sees it's gonna be $150+ rentals + lesson on top. That's likely a nonstarter. And they may not know about the affordable feeder hills.

I don't buy this last argument. How many people in the past just randomly on their own decided to try skiing? Probably very few. Even when day tickets were $30-40, by the time you add rentals and lessons you were still easily over $100 which was a lot of money for many people say even just 10-20 years ago. Most people are introduced to the sport by someone else (family, friends, etc). So those family/friends should be the ones telling them how/where to get the best deals to try it out.

 

[Kingslug20]

My first wife pretty much said..I ski..in the winter. So if you don't want to try and learn you will be home and I will be skiing. So I spent a year learning..the hard way but eventually got the hang of it..and got hooked. I had tried it in the past but found it miserable. She taught me...and now..I tend to do it a lot. I would not have done this on my own though.

 

[deadheadskier]

I don't buy this last argument. How many people in the past just randomly on their own decided to try skiing? Probably very few. Even when day tickets were $30-40, by the time you add rentals and lessons you were still easily over $100 which was a lot of money for many people say even just 10-20 years ago. Most people are introduced to the sport by someone else (family, friends, etc). So those family/friends should be the ones telling them how/where to get the best deals to try it out.

I don't disagree with that. But if those friends that have Epic / Ikon they're probably inviting the newby to join them. Not saying hey, go ski Nashoba by yourself and if you like it, come ski Stowe with me the next time.

Maybe the solution is to offer a pass holder referral package. Tell pass holders they can invite new people for a killer package price.

 

[cdskier]

I don't disagree with that. But if those friends that have Epic / Ikon they're probably inviting the newby to join them. Not saying hey, go ski Nashoba by yourself and if you like it, come ski Stowe with me the next time.

Maybe the solution is to offer a pass holder referral package. Tell pass holders they can invite new people for a killer package price.

I'd agree that something like that would make sense.

At the same time, I'd never invite a newbie to come ski with me at Sugarbush unless they were very serious about wanting to ski and then I'd direct them to the SB "First timer to life timer" program. If they were unsure, I'd definitely be recommending they try skiing at a smaller/feeder hill (unless they were rich and had money to waste).

But let's not also kid ourselves...skiing has long had a high entry price for a random person that needed a lift ticket and rentals and a lesson. This is not some new phenomenon. The high window prices make it "seem" worse, but at the same time, information on discounts and deals is also much easier to access today. 20-30 years ago you were probably more likely to pay the walk up rate because the information wasn't as easy to find online (or you didn't even have Internet...or if you go back further, Internet didn't even exist).

I really have a hard time feeling bad for someone that just randomly decides to walk up to a ski area one day with doing no research ahead of time. I'd say the same thing for someone that just randomly goes to a car dealer and overpays because they have no idea what to expect a particular model car to actually sell for.

 

[drjeff]

I'd agree that something like that would make sense.

At the same time, I'd never invite a newbie to come ski with me at Sugarbush unless they were very serious about wanting to ski and then I'd direct them to the SB "First timer to life timer" program. If they were unsure, I'd definitely be recommending they try skiing at a smaller/feeder hill (unless they were rich and had money to waste).

But let's not also kid ourselves...skiing has long had a high entry price for a random person that needed a lift ticket and rentals and a lesson. This is not some new phenomenon. The high window prices make it "seem" worse, but at the same time, information on discounts and deals is also much easier to access today. 20-30 years ago you were probably more likely to pay the walk up rate because the information wasn't as easy to find online (or you didn't even have Internet...or if you go back further, Internet didn't even exist).

I really have a hard time feeling bad for someone that just randomly decides to walk up to a ski area one day with doing no research ahead of time. I'd say the same thing for someone that just randomly goes to a car dealer and overpays because they have no idea what to expect a particular model car to actually sell for.

And I would guess that the majority of skiers were likely introduced to the sport by family members or school based evening programs and then probaly 3rd by friends who are skiers

I can only imagine what a daunting proposition wanting to learn to ski would be if someone didn't have some family/peer who was already involved in the sport to help them at the beginning, and not just from a learn to ski perspective

 

[crank]

When I started skiing, 59-years ago, yikes! Old I am. Nobody in my family skied nor did anyone I knew. As I became a teenager and started finding skiing buddies it was split about 50/50 between those who had skiing families and guys like me who just tried it and stuck with it.

I agree it's harder and harder to get into it, afford it, navigate the gear etc..

Not sure how if if that old 60's vibe can be brought back. For me it was seeing the winter olympics and then there was this old Timex watch commercial with a guy skiing with a watch strapped to his boards. "Takes a licking and keeps on ticking."

 

[1dog]

It might attract new skiers to THEIR properties, but not new people to the sport. Skiing requires a heavy initial investment. My guess is very few people just hop into the sport with a pass.

Now if Stowe offered a day pass + lesson + rentals for say $150 (still expensive), that might get more people to give the sport a try.

But for Joe flatlander who knows very little and looks at the website and sees it's gonna be $150+ rentals + lesson on top. That's likely a nonstarter. And they may not know about the affordable feeder hills.

The comparison might be better couched in inflation.

How much are pro sports tickets now? 3 hour game at Gillette 2 tickets - $600?

Had Bruins season tickets in the 90's for the price some people pay for a playoff game ( including me), house prices in the early 80's $50K-$80K in eastern MA, lift tickets $40 - I paid $12 for half day in March of '82 at K-Mart when I started - rentals $12. I earned maybe $20-$25K

Only thing that has gone in reverse are ( mostly) unregulated electronics and gas - it was a buck in 1980, s/b approx $6 if it followed housing.

Concerts at 2-3 hours no one has a problem dropping $150 each. Dinner out at a nice establishment? $150-$200.

Its always been a reach for the middle class, always will be, and it's priorities.

Familes can camp, hike and ski together, not so much baseball or hockey. Or even tennis. Feeder hills are still the. lifeblood. Get people hooked and they drop other things and have priorities.

Lots of upper middle class people spend a boatload on a family cruise ( I can't understand that) or a beach house rental for a week and drop $10K, and skiing isn't really more than that.

Priorities. . . . . .

 

[drjeff]

The comparison might be better couched in inflation.

How much are pro sports tickets now? 3 hour game at Gillette 2 tickets - $600?

Had Bruins season tickets in the 90's for the price some people pay for a playoff game ( including me), house prices in the early 80's $50K-$80K in eastern MA, lift tickets $40 - I paid $12 for half day in March of '82 at K-Mart when I started - rentals $12. I earned maybe $20-$25K

Only thing that has gone in reverse are ( mostly) unregulated electronics and gas - it was a buck in 1980, s/b approx $6 if it followed housing.

Concerts at 2-3 hours no one has a problem dropping $150 each. Dinner out at a nice establishment? $150-$200.

Its always been a reach for the middle class, always will be, and it's priorities.

Familes can camp, hike and ski together, not so much baseball or hockey. Or even tennis. Feeder hills are still the. lifeblood. Get people hooked and they drop other things and have priorities.

Lots of upper middle class people spend a boatload on a family cruise ( I can't understand that) or a beach house rental for a week and drop $10K, and skiing isn't really more than that.

Priorities. . . . . .

I also look at my recreation based disposable income dollars by comapring my 2 primary sports, skiing and golf, which combined give me something to do 52 weeks a year!

My Epic pass costs me $600 or so currently. Last year I skied 66 days (most on my Epic pass). My Country Club membership costs me about $2500 and to date I have played 62 rounds of golf (with about as many rounds of golf not played at my home club as days I skied last year and didn't use my Epic pass) - My skiing per day costs are still much lower than my golfing per day costs. I probably spend close to as much $$ per year on new ski gear as I do new golf gear.

The reality is that there are a ton of sports/recreational activitivities that we participate in that do have notable costs associated with them (from boating to ATV's, mountain and road bikes, etc, etc,, etc) and in the end we all (or certainly most of us) seem to feel that it's a reasonable value for the enjoyment we derrive from it, and then often we are able to pass that enjoyment on to others, who may then also choose to take up that sport/activity

 

[ThatGuy]

I'm thinking more of families. But recently I started racing a motorcycle up near Oneonta. There are only 2 tracks that you can do this on a regular basis like this..one there and one in NJ. The owner sells out season passes at 3K in a day..He said he had so many first timers after 1 day doing it ( its not competitive racing) sign up for a season pass...
so...I guess there could also be a percentage of first timers doing the same after a few times if they get hooked.

Tonys? My buddy rides there sometimes.

 

[boston_e]

I agree - for all of us there are activities that we accept are just going to cost some money.

Golf is an interesting comparison. Anecdotally, I just looked at a couple of courses near me. Season passes at both are about $2000, yet daily greens fees are about $70. As an occasional golfer I am willing to pony up $70 to play with some friends a couple of times a summer. I’d never go if it was $180 for the day. Likewise I am not a candidate for a golf season pass even if a season pass were $800.

I’d imagine there are occasional skiers in a similar boat to my golfing who just don’t ski anymore because of what the pricing model has become.

 

[thetrailboss]

I just got the latest SKI Magazine and there is an opinion article as to discounted season pass products that is relevant to this discussion. I will see if I can post it. The main point: people buy IKON or EPIC with aspirations of doing all of these trips to different resorts and due to time and money limitations that does not happen. Instead, they use their pass locally and increase traffic at local ski areas. The author's other point was that the market demanded this cheap multimountain product. There is some truth to both of these statements.

 

[cdskier]

Golf is an interesting comparison. With golf, there's a huge range of prices (just like with skiing). There are absolutely some courses that cost a lot of money to play. Then there are others that are very cheap. For example where I live in NJ, you can play at the county courses for $35 on the weekend as a county resident (plus a $40 registration fee that is valid for the season). You can also skip the registration fee if you plan to play only once, but then your daily weekend rate goes up to $60/day. So if you plan to play at least 2 days, it makes sense to register and pay the $40.

The point though is that there again are options depending on what you want to pay. If you want to play at a fancy course (or ski a big name resort), you'll pay high daily rates. You can't expect to be able to play any course you want for a low daily rate, but options at low price points DO exist.

 

[machski]

Very solid explanation of how the strategy covers maintaining a steady revenue stream in a weather volatile business to plan future short term development.

But does that strategy also promote participation growth to match those future increases in operational expenses from that development?

If it doesn't, where does that leave us when the boomers can no longer ski and the next generation can't replace the numbers?

This discussion to me isn't about how to fund shiny new things. It's about preventing more rusty things on NELSAP.

Somebody said it above, "Is skiing the new yachting?"

I do agree to some extent with this. The question is how to manage the "intro" ticket then. Obviously you don't want a super low day ticket window rate, as that would encourage many back to day tickets in an effort to chase conditions beyond the newbies.

Probably what they need to do is offer new skier packages or tickets that are restricted to certain lifts at a discounted price that is easier to enter on. With RFID cards, that should be much easier to screen those lifts out. Then probably after so many lesson/tickets at those rates, offer one of the pass options as an add at that time to try to lock them in (maybe even at the early season rate for a restricted pass). I don't know the full answer, but I do know cheap day tickets are never coming back at the window day of.

 

[machski]

My first wife pretty much said..I ski..in the winter. So if you don't want to try and learn you will be home and I will be skiing. So I spent a year learning..the hard way but eventually got the hang of it..and got hooked. I had tried it in the past but found it miserable. She taught me...and now..I tend to do it a lot. I would not have done this on my own though.

Worked the opposite for my dad. He had ski patrolled an everything before he met my mom, then gave it up. I wasn't until I hit the preteens and we dug up dad's old patrol belts and equipment in the basement that we got pissed he had skied and hadn't yet taught us. Two more years til I was 12 before we convinced mom to let dad teach us. So sometimes the kiddos have to push the parents

 

[Kingslug20]

Hunter used to offer a deal for newbies that restricted them to Hunter one...also incentive to you for bringing someone new. Don't know if they still do it.

 

[boston_e]

I just got the latest SKI Magazine and there is an opinion article as to discounted season pass products that is relevant to this discussion. I will see if I can post it. The main point: people buy IKON or EPIC with aspirations of doing all of these trips to different resorts and due to time and money limitations that does not happen. Instead, they use their pass locally and increase traffic at local ski areas. The author's other point was that the market demanded this cheap multimountain product. There is some truth to both of these statements.

It would also be Interesting to know what percentage of the passes go unused or minimally used? How many people don’t “justify the cost of their pass” by skiing enough days?

 

[thetrailboss]

It would also be Interesting to know what percentage of the passes go unused or minimally used? How many people don’t “justify the cost of their pass” by skiing enough days?

The author is a former industry insider. He said that data shows that people expect to go 20-25 days, but instead average 8-12. The crowding is from the large volume of passes sold, the fact that everyone uses their passes on the same dates, and to some extent because they don't use the resorts in the network but focus on local places in network.

 

[crank]

I just got the latest SKI Magazine and there is an opinion article as to discounted season pass products that is relevant to this discussion. I will see if I can post it. The main point: people buy IKON or EPIC with aspirations of doing all of these trips to different resorts and due to time and money limitations that does not happen. Instead, they use their pass locally and increase traffic at local ski areas. The author's other point was that the market demanded this cheap multimountain product. There is some truth to both of these statements.

Well we bought our Ikon passes with the intention to do both. Jackson Hole booked and reserved. Will do a storm chase out to SLC. Couple of long weekends booked at Sugarbush. Will day trip Windham. Was already planning on Dolomites trip in March now on Ikon pass! Plans to meet some folks from that other forum at Killington late March.

 

[thetrailboss]

Well we bought our Ikon passes with the intention to do both. Jackson Hole booked and reserved. Will do a storm chase out to SLC. Couple of long weekends booked at Sugarbush. Will day trip Windham. Was already planning on Dolomites trip in March now on Ikon pass! Plans to meet some folks from that other forum at Killington late March.

Sounds like fun. I imagine that you are not the 'average' skier or rider or earn the median U.S. household income considering those plans. The author's point was the cash and time limitations prevent most from using resorts throughout the network.