Does May Skiing Make Sense?

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

Why am I the only one who voted..You Can Ski in May..da,m

 

[skiadikt]

Here's the question: what has fundamentally changed in the last 10 years that would make skiing into June unprofitable now when Killington made it work before? One is energy costs. Maybe now you need to keep a terrain park up and trails groomed. Maybe, because the skiers still going Memorial Day can probably handle bumps decently. But there may be more maintenance required. I doubt the level of passion among skiers has changed substantially.

energy costs are certainly a factor and maybe even warming. asc offering an all-east pass pretty much killed the day ticket sales when skiers from what was it 6-8 ski areas could all ski k on their passes. the final nail was when asc had the fire sale and slashed the price of that pass. it became totally unprofitable. i have to believe that for the 25 years or so that they did it, it was maybe break even or slightly profitable at best with the additional benefits trail boss mentions.

our modus was we'd ski every weekend in may except mother's day unless it was a washout. on a good weather may weekend, i kinda remember them drawing a "crowd" at least similar to last weekend. lots of bumpers, bump teams & bump clincs. on a good weather memorial weekend, they could almost fill the lot at kbl and they would draw 300-400 entrants for the triathlon. i think once they started closing earlier in 2004 that people sort of gave up on it and started doing other things. i still think now that they're a stand alone resort again, that's it's a business they could possibly rebuild.

 

[saabski]

I have paid to ski in May in the past (Bretton Woods and K) when my home area (Sugarbush) closed earlier than others. Now Win likes to stay open (or reopen for a weekend) and I am planning to ski Sunday. When my 'home' mt was Stowe (late 8o's early 90's) we always went to Sugarbush for their spring days (recall $5 or $15 a carload!) because Stowe always wrapped 2 or 3 weekends before the 'Bush. Skiing the Summit chair at North and downloading was great! YAY Win for the late season!!!!!!

 

[Greg]

I would ski Superstar Bumps at least a couple of days every May if it was available for $30 or less. Same could be said for Wildcat.

I'm not paying for a hotel room for spring skiing, so it would have to be daytripable. Sugarbush is a touch farther than I like to do for a day trip

I'm kinda with you on this. I think I'd pay up to $50. Has to be Superstar Bumps though.

 

[drjeff]

Here's the question: what has fundamentally changed in the last 10 years that would make skiing into June unprofitable now when Killington made it work before? One is energy costs. Maybe now you need to keep a terrain park up and trails groomed. Maybe, because the skiers still going Memorial Day can probably handle bumps decently. But there may be more maintenance required. I doubt the level of passion among skiers has changed substantially.

Very easy answer to this one. The overall demographic of the snowslider. 10 years ago, snowboarding wasn't nearly as popular as it is today and the freeski/freeride park scene was atmost in its infancy. Now, amongst the age demographic that used to make up a significant portion of the late season population, folks under 30 (and I'm sure that if I further classified that as males under 30), many more of them are apt to be found in a park or on a board than on two planks bumping away. No park/no pipe/no atleast "board friendly" smooth terrain and this sizeable population of folks that used to make up the late season ski scene is eliminated, and hence the profitability.

This was VERY apparent the last weekend of operations at Mount Snow. The parks and pipe had a very steady volume in them all weekend long, and even though they didn't spin a lift on the Northface to access bumps that weekend, I feel 100% certain saying that if they did, the amount of extra business volume they would have picked up from having bumps available would have been negligable compared to what the park/pipe revenue made them.

Bottomline, is while the late season bump addiction that so many of us here at AZ have is a significant portion of the regulars, this demographic isn't anywhere close to the general snowslider demographic. Basically, on AZ, the spring bumper is the big fish in this pond, but overall the spring bumper is now the small fish in the pond compared to 10 years ago.

If you want to get this back, you just need to find a way to get the kids/teens of today out of the parks and pipes and into the bumps for a while to appreciate them. Good luck trying to do that on a large scale basis in the forseeable future.

 

[RootDKJ]

I'd have a hard time getting away in May. PO's have hit my vendors in March, and equipment starts arriving at the warehouse during April. When May rolls around, we get pretty busy installing and activating the new technology. I stay busy through September.

By the time Nov/Dec rolls around, my department has usually spent our budget and we're in maintenance mode until Jan.

 

[Greg]

energy costs are certainly a factor and maybe even warming. asc offering an all-east pass pretty much killed the day ticket sales when skiers from what was it 6-8 ski areas could all ski k on their passes. the final nail was when asc had the fire sale and slashed the price of that pass. it became totally unprofitable. i have to believe that for the 25 years or so that they did it, it was maybe break even or slightly profitable at best with the additional benefits trail boss mentions.

our modus was we'd ski every weekend in may except mother's day unless it was a washout. on a good weather may weekend, i kinda remember them drawing a "crowd" at least similar to last weekend. lots of bumpers, bump teams & bump clincs. on a good weather memorial weekend, they could almost fill the lot at kbl and they would draw 300-400 entrants for the triathlon. i think once they started closing earlier in 2004 that people sort of gave up on it and started doing other things. i still think now that they're a stand alone resort again, that's it's a business they could possibly rebuild.

I never had the opportunity to ski the Supe glacier in May. It brings up an interesting thought though - what other ski ares(s) could pick up the torch here an offer a Superstar like experience well into the spring? Say if a mountain further south tried it? Could it be profitable being closer to metro areas? Superstar with a dedicated lift, relatively high base at 2,500' and almost due north exposure really is the perfect setup. I can't really think of one that's better, but if there was, I'd imagine they could make it work.

 

[drjeff]

I'm kinda with you on this. I think I'd pay up to $50. Has to be Superstar Bumps though.

See my below post. I'd bet that way more people would pay $50 to ski/ride a full length Superstar park than a full length Superstar bump run nowadays.

 

[Greg]

See my below post. I'd bet that way more people would pay $50 to ski/ride a full length Superstar park than a full length Superstar bump run nowadays.

Probably right. I think I'm gonna learn to jib next season. :razz:

 

[mondeo]

If you want to get this back, you just need to find a way to get the kids/teens of today out of the parks and pipes and into the bumps for a while to appreciate them. Good luck trying to do that on a large scale basis in the forseeable future.

Maybe now you need to keep a terrain park up and trails groomed. Maybe, because the skiers still going Memorial Day can probably handle bumps decently. But there may be more maintenance required. I doubt the level of passion among skiers has changed substantially.

I agree with you. If I were Killington and decided to push Superstar into Memorial Day, I'd probably go 50/50 bumps/groomed up top, 50/50 park through the middle section possibly leaving a line or two of bumps, and then 50/50 bumps/groomed lower. The problem here is now you need to maintain the trail every day, which changes the economics of operating longer. Plus during the summer groomed trails don't stay that way, which is a challenge in itself if you accept the need to groom.

 

[Greg]

I agree with you. If I were Killington and decided to push Superstar into Memorial Day, I'd probably go 50/50 bumps/groomed up top, 50/50 park through the middle section possibly leaving a line or two of bumps, and then 50/50 bumps/groomed lower. The problem here is now you need to maintain the trail every day, which changes the economics of operating longer. Plus during the summer groomed trails don't stay that way, which is a challenge in itself if you accept the need to groom.

Interesting point about trail maintenance.

2knees made a great point the other day about the grooming/non-grooming thing in the spring. If you groom daily, bumps still form anyway so the groomer crowd is not happy, but the bumps that do form are crappy so the bump crowd is not happy. The solution? Never groom so you can at least please one group! :razz:

 

[2knees]

i honestly dont know if may skiing can work if too many areas are doing it. Lets face it here, the people posting on message boards are a tiny tiny fraction of the skiing populus. By april, all the kids sports programs are in full swing now so families simply arent skiing anymore on weekends. the savage nature of super competitive 7 year old soccer programs is a force that simply can not be stopped. I mean, if you miss one practice, your kid isnt gonna get that $50,000 a year scholarship to Duke or Stanford and will therefor ruin his or her entire future.....

seriously though, if one or maybe two places would stay open through may, there is probably a customer base to satisfy that financial outlay. beyond that, not enough customers.

 

[skiadikt]

i honestly dont know if may skiing can work if too many areas are doing it. Lets face it here, the people posting on message boards are a tiny tiny fraction of the skiing populus. By april, all the kids sports programs are in full swing now so families simply arent skiing anymore on weekends. the savage nature of super competitive 7 year old soccer programs is a force that simply can not be stopped. I mean, if you miss one practice, your kid isnt gonna get that $50,000 a year scholarship to Duke or Stanford and will therefor ruin his or her entire future.....

seriously though, if one or maybe two places would stay open through may, there is probably a customer base to satisfy that financial outlay. beyond that, not enough customers.

definitely for one. back in the early 80's k & bush would compete for the longest season so there must have been something to it. even river & snow extended their seasons. my first memorial at k was '81 and i remember booting up in kbl and the mnt opps guys were actually congratulating each other on being the "kings of spring" since the bush had closed the previous day. maybe they were joking but it made quite an impression on the young adikt. in any case, i think there could be enough of a market to support one place if done right.

 

[Greg]

Okay, I'll say it. Sundown has to build the Gunny Glacier. :lol:

 

[drjeff]

Okay, I'll say it. Sundown has to build the Gunny Glacier. :lol:

Here's the business owner side of me speaking now, NOT the ski addict side.

Could a "Gunny Glacier" (lets say one that could get to May 1st) financially support the probably extra tens of thousands of dollars just in snowmaking costs alone??? Since snowmaking costs is more than likely to be the largest expense associated with the "Gunny Glacier" when compared to lift operations and labor staff costs.

For simple math sake here, lets say that it costs $500 an hour to make snow on Gunny. And that to blow enough extra snow to make it 3 more weeks would take 50 hours of gun time. You've spent an extra $25,000 to make the "Gunny Glacier" over what you normally would spend. One would assume that Sundown would go with a weekends only operating scheme.

If tickets were $50, you'd have to sell 500 tickets to cover snowmaking costs, at $30 you'd need to sell roughly 830 tickets and at $25 you'd have to sell 1,000 tickets - for ease of math, we'll assume that your food + beverage revenue would cover the staff/lift ops costs.

Could you realistically get that many PAYING customers to Sundown over say 3 extra weekends to atleast cover your costs???

 

[thetrailboss]

FWIW $500 is a conservative estimate. I've heard that SB (at one time) budgeted $1,000 per hour when considering electricity, water, labor, and equipment.

 

[drjeff]

FWIW $500 is a conservative estimate. I've heard that SB (at one time) budgeted $1,000 per hour when considering electricity, water, labor, and equipment.

I know it's likely a conservative hourly figure, but we're talking 1 trail, roughly 2/3rds of a mile long, lined with low-e tower guns, not a full system.

Heck, full system wise, I know from talking with mutliple admins at Mount Snow that when they have their system maxed out, operational costs are close to $10,000 an hour

 

[Greg]

Here's the business owner side of me speaking now, NOT the ski addict side.

Could a "Gunny Glacier" (lets say one that could get to May 1st) financially support the probably extra tens of thousands of dollars just in snowmaking costs alone??? Since snowmaking costs is more than likely to be the largest expense associated with the "Gunny Glacier" when compared to lift operations and labor staff costs.

For simple math sake here, lets say that it costs $500 an hour to make snow on Gunny. And that to blow enough extra snow to make it 3 more weeks would take 50 hours of gun time. You've spent an extra $25,000 to make the "Gunny Glacier" over what you normally would spend. One would assume that Sundown would go with a weekends only operating scheme.

If tickets were $50, you'd have to sell 500 tickets to cover snowmaking costs, at $30 you'd need to sell roughly 830 tickets and at $25 you'd have to sell 1,000 tickets - for ease of math, we'll assume that your food + beverage revenue would cover the staff/lift ops costs.

Could you realistically get that many PAYING customers to Sundown over say 3 extra weekends to atleast cover your costs???

Uhm....I was kidding. :idea:

Interesting breakdown, nonetheless. Since we're hypothesizing though, gotta look beyond day ticket sales though. Say they also offered a $200 spring pass good from March 1 through April? But that would cut into ticket sales. It could also be used to market the next season's pass.

Anyway, getting to May at Sundown is definitely silly. I wonder how much it would cost to makes enough snow to get to April 15 though. I drove by the mountain on April 1 and more than half the coverage was gone. Still, knowing how Sundown operates, I'm sure they looked into this and found it's just not viable. I'd be stoked to just get an extra weekend or two into April though.

FWIW $500 is a conservative estimate. I've heard that SB (at one time) budgeted $1,000 per hour when considering electricity, water, labor, and equipment.

Sugarbush has a lot more vert to pump air/water up than the mighty Sundown. I don't know where drjeff came up with the $500/hour, but if SB is indeed $1K/hour, it seems reasonable. On the flipside, Sundown is forced to make snow in more marginal conditions than mountains up north. It just doesn't get as consistently cold long enough down here so they gotta make it when they can even when it's not efficient to do so. That undoubtedly drives the hourly cost up.

 

[2knees]

Here's the business owner side of me speaking now, NOT the ski addict side.

Could a "Gunny Glacier" (lets say one that could get to May 1st) financially support the probably extra tens of thousands of dollars just in snowmaking costs alone??? Since snowmaking costs is more than likely to be the largest expense associated with the "Gunny Glacier" when compared to lift operations and labor staff costs.

For simple math sake here, lets say that it costs $500 an hour to make snow on Gunny. And that to blow enough extra snow to make it 3 more weeks would take 50 hours of gun time. You've spent an extra $25,000 to make the "Gunny Glacier" over what you normally would spend. One would assume that Sundown would go with a weekends only operating scheme.

If tickets were $50, you'd have to sell 500 tickets to cover snowmaking costs, at $30 you'd need to sell roughly 830 tickets and at $25 you'd have to sell 1,000 tickets - for ease of math, we'll assume that your food + beverage revenue would cover the staff/lift ops costs.

Could you realistically get that many PAYING customers to Sundown over say 3 extra weekends to atleast cover your costs???

people would come from miles and miles around to behold the miracle that would be a gunny glacier. Traffic would be backed up on 44 all the way to avon. women would weep, children would sing and dance in the streets and greg would shave his beard and offer his hand in marriage to Chris Sullivan.

 

[Greg]

I know it's likely a conservative hourly figure, but we're talking 1 trail, roughly 2/3rds of a mile long, lined with low-e tower guns, not a full system.

Gunny is lined on both sides of the trail with HKDs and it's not even a half mile long. I don't know a lot about snowmaking, but I don't think they're low energy. It also takes a majority of Sundown's capacity to make snow full tilt on Gunbarrel. That's why they never touch it until the rest of the mountain is already open.