High Priced Lift Tickets

[joshua segal]

I would say your glasses are rose colored due to loyalty to your employer.

You provide some caveats in that your opinion is mainly Crotched focused, but your observations of elsewhere are purely subjective and quite frankly, dishonest in many ways.

Speaking of NH; Attitash, Wildcat and especially Sunapee make less snow than under Peak. They all run lifts less frequently too. The contrast of operations now at Sunapee especially compared to the Mueller's ownership is vastly inferior.

Wildcat and Sunapee have 2-4 week shorter seasons. Both got chopped on both ends.

Not one of my many dozen friends and acquaintances in Stowe are happy with Vail compared to prior ownership.

Hunter skiers also pissed based on comments here.

Okemo and Mt Snow I pay little attention to. Though my personal experience with Mt Snow this winter is they completely choked by cancelling the Masters camp. My little Gunstock could have held the camp easily.

The skier visit numbers will remain up though at Vail properties. Not because of great performance, but because the pass is so cheap and they've built out a portfolio of borderline geographic monopolies. They know this, and they have most of the money they need before the first snowflakes fall, so they have little incentive to perform.

The reason you see far more anger directed at Vail vs iKon is because the iKon resorts are run objectively better than Vail; especially the Boyne properties here in the East.

Your posting is dishonest based on incorrect data.

1. I am retired. My employers are the ones whose 401k's and 403b's that are financing my retirement. (not Vail)
2. I didn't mention Sunapee or Stowe in my posting, because neither was a Peak Resort. That other Peak Resorts mentioned (including Crotched Mtn.) were in states of deferred maintenance and that is not subjective.
3. I have contacts at both Okemo and Mount Snow, as well as many visits there. Also, AZ's DrJeff is a very connected source for Mount Snow data.
4. The reason you see far more anger directed at Vail vs ... is because Vail is the NY Yankees of skiing. Just the name creates polarization.

 

[deadheadskier]

Your posting is dishonest based on incorrect data.

1. I am retired. My employers are the ones whose 401k's and 403b's that are financing my retirement. (not Vail)
2. I didn't mention Sunapee or Stowe in my posting, because neither was a Peak Resort. That other Peak Resorts mentioned (including Crotched Mtn.) were in states of deferred maintenance and that is not subjective.
3. I have contacts at both Okemo and Mount Snow, as well as many visits there. Also, AZ's DrJeff is a very connected source for Mount Snow data.
4. The reason you see far more anger directed at Vail vs ... is because Vail is the NY Yankees of skiing. Just the name creates polarization.

No it's not. It's because the iKon resorts are being run objectively better. Greater snowmaking efforts, longer seasons, you name it.

It's not like the iKon Resorts are the KC Royals. In fact in New England, if any company would be called the NY Yankees, it's iKon. The combined lifts / terrain and total skier visits of Stratton, Killington, Sugarbush, Loon, Sunday River and Sugarloaf is greater than that of Snow, Okemo, Stowe, Sunapee, Crotched, Attitash and Wildcat by a considerable margin.

You have drank the Kool aid and parrot all the excuses Vail has made when the iKon properties have not made the same excuses regarding Covid or anything else. Or at least not to the same degree. Your subjective homerism is blatantly obvious and I'm sorry it hurts your feelings that most on here think Vail sucks and very few people are complaining about iKon. The reason is performance

 

[AdironRider]

You do realize Ikon does not own Killington Loon Sunday River or Sugarloaf right? Ikon has zero say in how they run operations.

That said, your complaints do not line up with reality. Vail visits are up. If they were as bad as you say, it would be the opposite.

Again you are just bitching that Vail isn’t bending over backwards to give you private access, and I suspect has ramped down on the bro deals you used to be able to get at Stowe from your ski bum days. News flash, your prime is past.

The ski industry has realized that the jaded local is a liability and not an asset. That doesn’t jive with what you want but the actual customers who spend money like it a lot better this way.

 

[KustyTheKlown]

visits and pass sales being up and operations being in the shitter are not mutually exclusive.

lots of people shop at walmart because its cheap and convenient and they don't know or care that there are better places to shop. same idea here.

 

[deadheadskier]

You do realize Ikon does not own Killington Loon Sunday River or Sugarloaf right? Ikon has zero say in how they run operations.

That said, your complaints do not line up with reality. Vail visits are up. If they were as bad as you say, it would be the opposite.

Again you are just bitching that Vail isn’t bending over backwards to give you private access, and I suspect has ramped down on the bro deals you used to be able to get at Stowe from your ski bum days. News flash, your prime is past.

The ski industry has realized that the jaded local is a liability and not an asset. That doesn’t jive with what you want but the actual customers who spend money like it a lot better this way.

You are so far off the mark it's laughable and my 4 year has more creativity with her insults.

King of projection with a wild imagination. Stay gold ponyboy.

 

[Edd]

You do realize Ikon does not own Killington Loon Sunday River or Sugarloaf right? Ikon has zero say in how they run operations.

That said, your complaints do not line up with reality. Vail visits are up. If they were as bad as you say, it would be the opposite.

Vail visits are up because it’s cheap. And that’s great, for some people. If you’re a Wildcat homer, it hasn’t been great, though I can’t speak for this season. Last year it was horrendous from an operations standpoint, and the whole vibe of the place was apocalyptic. Sunapee also suffered in similar ways, plus more crowding.

If you’re a Mt Snow or Okemo local, Vail is a better fit. Stowe, I’m not so sure about.

 

[cdskier]

That said, your complaints do not line up with reality. Vail visits are up. If they were as bad as you say, it would be the opposite.

Visits are up compared to what though?

Sure they're up 12.5% as of early January compared to last year's early season...but there's a lot of explanations for that which have nothing to do with whether Vail is doing a good job or not:

Results season to date for the 2022/2023 North American ski season outperformed results from the comparable prior year period, which were negatively impacted by challenging early season conditions, elevated COVID-19 cases associated with the Omicron variant and staffing-driven capacity constraints in our ancillary businesses. Improved conditions at our Colorado, Utah and Tahoe resorts drove a strong rebound in local guest visitation and the easing of travel restrictions in Canada contributed to a strong rebound in destination visitation at Whistler Blackcomb relative to the prior year period.

There's a lot of factors mentioned there...and a 1 year comparison of early season visits doesn't tell you much overall.

Perhaps more importantly to speak to what people actually think about Vail's operations disappointing people would be pass sales metrics. While Vail will brag that overall their sales were up, that was largely driven by an increase in the Epic Day Pass product. Sales of their core season pass products actually went DOWN.

Sales of Epic and Epic Local passes are consistent with our expectations and with the trend seen in our September results, with unit sales declining by 12% relative to the prior year

To me that says regular season pass-holders were not happy if sales dropped 12%. Overall sales though were up for a couple possible reasons. 1) People that previously purchased lift tickets shifted to the Epic Day pass product (which is exactly what Vail wants). 2) People with regular season passes downgraded to Epic Day pass products.

Vail can try to paint a rosy picture to investors, but I would not be at all happy about traditional season pass sales declining. A 12% drop there is pretty substantial.

 

[thetrailboss]

Your posting is dishonest based on incorrect data.

1. I am retired. My employers are the ones whose 401k's and 403b's that are financing my retirement. (not Vail)
2. I didn't mention Sunapee or Stowe in my posting, because neither was a Peak Resort. That other Peak Resorts mentioned (including Crotched Mtn.) were in states of deferred maintenance and that is not subjective.
3. I have contacts at both Okemo and Mount Snow, as well as many visits there. Also, AZ's DrJeff is a very connected source for Mount Snow data.
4. The reason you see far more anger directed at Vail vs ... is because Vail is the NY Yankees of skiing. Just the name creates polarization.

"Dishonest" is a stretch IMHO.

And unless you are volunteering without any compensation, then you are getting paid by Crotched for what you do. We're not talking about your "retirement". The question was if you are a paid employee. Your qualified answer suggests you know what he was getting at. Saying anything else is disingenuous.

DHS has his own concerns about Vail's operations that he has outlined pretty thoroughly. It is OK if you disagree, but comparing his feelings to those of a Red Sox fan towards the Yankees really minimizes his concerns.

 

[drjeff]

Visits are up compared to what though?

Sure they're up 12.5% as of early January compared to last year's early season...but there's a lot of explanations for that which have nothing to do with whether Vail is doing a good job or not:

There's a lot of factors mentioned there...and a 1 year comparison of early season visits doesn't tell you much overall.

Perhaps more importantly to speak to what people actually think about Vail's operations disappointing people would be pass sales metrics. While Vail will brag that overall their sales were up, that was largely driven by an increase in the Epic Day Pass product. Sales of their core season pass products actually went DOWN.



To me that says regular season pass-holders were not happy if sales dropped 12%. Overall sales though were up for a couple possible reasons. 1) People that previously purchased lift tickets shifted to the Epic Day pass product (which is exactly what Vail wants). 2) People with regular season passes downgraded to Epic Day pass products.

Vail can try to paint a rosy picture to investors, but I would not be at all happy about traditional season pass sales declining. A 12% drop there is pretty substantial.

While your ideas about why pass sales may be down this year certainly have some validity to them, I think you also can't overlook the reality that the economy and inflation this year is much different (and not better IMHO) than it was last year, and certainly last year when the sales time for the '21-'22 Epic pass products were going on. That likley had some affect on the folks who were already streching their budgets to get any type of season pass product, regardless of who was selling it

 

[abc]

Interesting. Were there any other reasons why you are not buying a pass or was that it?

“Was that it”?

“It” (cross country skiing) is a major part of the reason.

I only have so much time to ski. There’re other obligation in life. So when I need to up my time on cross country skiing, it comes at the expense of downhill skiing. The last couple winter, I was increasingly struggling to find time to do both. Cross country skiing is winning simply because I enjoy it more. That, of course is slightly colored by the less satisfactory experience on the downhill resorts (mainly crowds & powder got skied off fast).

I haven’t used my IKON this year still. All the days I was able to ski, the condition had been better for cross country. Of course, that can reverse any time. Still, when I plan my trips for the remainder of the season, I found zero motivation to go to Wyndham or Stratton. Sugarbush would have been the “prime” target and Killington not too far behind. But somehow neither excites me. This year, I’ll get my pass paid for when I go out to Colorado. But the math is not working out as favorably as before when I used to skied downhill a lot more. So next year, I’m not sure I want to commit to skiing downhill x number of days to make a pass worthwhile any more. Also somewhat fortunately for us in New York, we do have options for semi-reasonable day tickets: Bellyeare, Plattekill, Gore… if the mood strikes for a few days of downhill.

In the back of my mind, there’s also the thought I’m getting older every year. My fitness will continue to decline no matter how hard I work at it. Cross country skiing is more demanding on fitness. So I want to do it when I can. Maybe in 10 years, when I can’t get up the smallest hills under my own power, I’ll go back to riding lifts.



[P.S.]
It just occurred to me there’s a related reason.

Last 2 years, during the on again off again “partial locked down”, I was working remotely. So I got to ski lunch hours, after work, before work, the whole 9 yard. Huge number of ski “days”. Since I skied so many days, to change things up, I took up xc skiing again (I used to do a lot of it, just not as frequently for the previous decade, again, victim of limited ski time which were then devoted to downhill ).

But now we’re back in the office. So my total skiable days are way down. I need to curb either downhill, or cross country, or a little of both to fit them all in. Cross country is winning, for all the reason above.

In my circle, I’m not the only one who is switching. Several others did the same as me, skiing more days during the WFH period, adding xc to the mix and end up getting more excited about xc than fighting crowds on mountains. Now with limited ski days, xc gets priority and… no more downhill pass!

 

[thetrailboss]

“Was that it”?

“It” (cross country skiing) is a major part of the reason.

I kind of sensed that you wanted to focus on training and that does take time, Additionally, you don't want to get injured skiing or riding.

I only have so much time to ski. There’re other obligation in life. So when I need to up my time on cross country skiing, it comes at the expense of downhill skiing. The last couple winter, I was increasingly struggling to find time to do both. Cross country skiing is winning simply because I enjoy it more. That, of course is slightly colored by the less satisfactory experience on the downhill resorts (mainly crowds & powder got skied off fast).

I remember when I did snowshoeing, XC, and skiing recreationally. What you said is exactly how I felt. It has come down to I spend a lot of $$$ on a pass so I feel guilty if I am not using it.

But now we’re back in the office. So my total skiable days are way down. I need to curb either downhill, or cross country, or a little of both to fit them all in. Cross country is winning, for all the reason above.

I am having the same issue. Work has been busy.

 

[AdironRider]

Visits are up compared to what though?

Sure they're up 12.5% as of early January compared to last year's early season...but there's a lot of explanations for that which have nothing to do with whether Vail is doing a good job or not:

There's a lot of factors mentioned there...and a 1 year comparison of early season visits doesn't tell you much overall.

Perhaps more importantly to speak to what people actually think about Vail's operations disappointing people would be pass sales metrics. While Vail will brag that overall their sales were up, that was largely driven by an increase in the Epic Day Pass product. Sales of their core season pass products actually went DOWN.



To me that says regular season pass-holders were not happy if sales dropped 12%. Overall sales though were up for a couple possible reasons. 1) People that previously purchased lift tickets shifted to the Epic Day pass product (which is exactly what Vail wants). 2) People with regular season passes downgraded to Epic Day pass products.

Vail can try to paint a rosy picture to investors, but I would not be at all happy about traditional season pass sales declining. A 12% drop there is pretty substantial.

Skier visits are up 12.5 percent off last year. You know what last year was?

It was the best year for skier visits since 1978 when they started tracking them.

https://nsaa.org/webdocs/Media_Public/IndustryStats/Historical_Skier_Days_1979_2022.pdf

DHS and the rest of you may hate it, but Vail is doing something right.

I don’t like crowds either but you guys are so full of shit when you say it is bad for the industry as a whole. That is the point I’m making. Nothing more, nothing less, other than DHS thinks he’s a tough guy and compensating for his old age.

 

[abc]

Additionally, you don't want to get injured skiing or riding.

Funny you say that. I’ve had 2 injuries in the last 3 years from xc skiing and zero from downhill!

Nothing major, but put me on the beach for a few weeks.

I think technique-wise I’m a better downhill skiers than I’m at cross country. Granted, I’m pushing myself when I xc ski and not when I downhill. I can dial back on either. But that’s not my mindset on xc at the moment. Also, I’m working on my xc technique so I’m sometimes “outside my comfort zone”. Hence pulled muscle and tendinitis etc are the hiccups.

It has come down to I spend a lot of $$$ on a pass so I feel guilty if I am not using it.

I feel the other way around. If I’m not using it a lot, I’m better off not get locked into 1 (or 1 group of) specific mountains.

I can still buy day tickets when I feel like skiing downhill. Lucky for us in the lower part of NE, there’re still plenty of mountains not on the mega pass and can be had for a reasonable price. I may even be tempted to get an Indy pass (which even includes a few nordic centers for no extra cost).

I am having the same issue. Work has been busy.

There’s something else. I WAS thinking I’d soon be retiring, a few years back. But, the pandemic changed that. I now plan to work some more years!

I know it sound strange. Short version, I was burned out at work before the pandemic. So was counting my coin for early retirement. During the pandemic, I got to work remote. Same work, but no commute. That changed everything. I felt rested, got recharged. Found work more interesting again.

Although we’re “back in the office”. But it’s “Hybrid”. So half the commute time. Plus the flexibility to head up to snow country at my leisure rather than getting stuck on the Friday/Sunday evening traffic madness. Still, the main change is I got out of the funk. Found work exciting again. So why not continue?

Even though the end result is less skiing days. But I think I’ll have a better balance between skiing and working. It’s just that downhill skiing will have to wait while I obsess over cross country!

 

[machski]

Your posting is dishonest based on incorrect data.

1. I am retired. My employers are the ones whose 401k's and 403b's that are financing my retirement. (not Vail)
2. I didn't mention Sunapee or Stowe in my posting, because neither was a Peak Resort. That other Peak Resorts mentioned (including Crotched Mtn.) were in states of deferred maintenance and that is not subjective.
3. I have contacts at both Okemo and Mount Snow, as well as many visits there. Also, AZ's DrJeff is a very connected source for Mount Snow data.
4. The reason you see far more anger directed at Vail vs ... is because Vail is the NY Yankees of skiing. Just the name creates polarization.

The reason Vail garners the hate is their centrist directives and operation. They scrub out any individual vibe at their resorts and replace it with a Vail carbon copy. Now, are they running Crotched a bit different from Sunapee/Attitash/Wildcat? Absolutely, it is not a destination resort, it is an urban ski area. That means it has to have after school programs, etc or it would die on the vine. It is very compact and of the NH Vail properties, probably has the most in place Snowmaking equipment. Not to mention it is the most compact area meaning it is far easier for a small crew to cover the area with a lot of snow.

The biggest difference between Vail owned and Alterra owned areas is Alterra allows it's resorts to operate pretty much as they see fit. That includes making decisions with regards to pass access at each resort. Think Crystal here, it got overrun and now is not an unlimited access iKon resort, it is limited with its own pricey season pass for unlimited access. Vail, wouldn't dream of this regardless of how bad the experience gets. There is your primary difference.

 

[cdskier]

Skier visits are up 12.5 percent off last year. You know what last year was?

It was the best year for skier visits since 1978 when they started tracking them.

Did you even read the quote from Vail themselves? They're up 12.5% compared to a period last year where they were down due to numerous challenges* (staffing, weather, cross-border travel restrictions that were still in place, etc). The year as a whole may have been high last year thanks to higher visitation numbers after the early season struggles, but early season last year was not a high barometer to measure against by any means. If full YOY numbers are up this year for Vail...then that's great and can help your argument. But good early season numbers from this year compared to bad early season numbers from last year prove absolutely nothing.

I also don't think I've seen any metrics from Vail on visitation by region. For all we know, their western resorts are up 25% YTD while their northeast resorts are down 15%. People out west may be content with Vail's management enough to offset poor performance in the east. The focus of people on this forum is the east, so Vail overall doing well doesn't mean the people here in the east don't have valid complaints.

You also completely ignored the season pass sales being down...which to me is a stronger indicator of how happy people are with Vail's performance (especially since that is a full YOY comparison vs a comparison of a small and highly variable time-frame). Not renewing a season pass speaks volumes (or downgrading if they switched to Epic Day Pass)... If you lose renewals (or they downgrade), you eventually run out of other "new" people to bring in to offset that loss.

Our dentist friend may also have a valid point about the economy impacting pass sales, but that's difficult to determine when you only have public pass sale data from 1 company. Anecdotally we've heard Ikon sales were up. If that's true, then that means the economy isn't the reason for Vail's core season pass sales being down 12%.

*Edit - Here's the numbers from early season last year for Vail...so again, even if they're up 12.5% this year YTD, they're still down compared to the fiscal year 2020 YTD numbers...

• Season-to-date total skier visits were down 1.7% compared to the prior year season-to-date period and down 18.3% compared to the fiscal year 2020 season-to-date period.

 

[thetrailboss]

The biggest difference between Vail owned and Alterra owned areas is Alterra allows it's resorts to operate pretty much as they see fit. That includes making decisions with regards to pass access at each resort.

For Alterra-owned areas, this discretion has only recently been granted and quite reluctantly. Deer Valley finally was allowed to ditch the Base pass. It only took their CEO/President walking off the job literally days before opening in 2021-2022 and three years of issues and complaints from local passholders for them to concede. It also came after Alterra created a middle-tier and upper-tier pass product to appease Jackson Hole, Alta, and the sister/cousin Aspen Resorts. Other than Deer Valley and Crystal, I do not know of any other Alterra-owned resort that has any restrictions to the IKON base other than the blackout dates.

Think Crystal here, it got overrun and now is not an unlimited access iKon resort, it is limited with its own pricey season pass for unlimited access. Vail, wouldn't dream of this regardless of how bad the experience gets. There is your primary difference.

IIRC their crowding issues were well publicized and in a state that has a more active regulatory approach. Again, the changes only came after much reluctance and a lot of pushing from the local management.

FWIW Solitude's new CEO/President publicly kissed the ring when she got the job. Multiple local news articles here had her quotes reaffirming their commitment to IKON. She stated, without qualification, that Solitude was "all-in" on IKON. Whether she did that on her own to "brown nose" and try to earn credibility with the company and please her new employer or whether Alterra told her she had to do it, it was done. Additionally, in one of her blog posts she mentioned that she had to ask permission from Alterra to build a new terrain park under the Sunrise Triple. That does not sound like having a lot of freedom to me.

But compared to Vail that dictates everything, then anything is better. Additionally, Alterra has moderated somewhat.

 

[joshua segal]

...

You have drank the Kool aid and parrot all the excuses Vail has made when the iKon properties have not made the same excuses regarding Covid or anything else. Or at least not to the same degree. Your subjective homerism is blatantly obvious and I'm sorry it hurts your feelings that most on here think Vail sucks and very few people are complaining about iKon. The reason is performance

More nonsense.

Under Peak Resorts, Crotched Mountain opened in mid-December with a limited schedule. Under Vail this year we opened in early December with a full schedule.
Vail resorts, Mount Snow opened one day after Killington opened and Okemo opened two days after Killington opened. Not what you'd expect if they were skimping.
Last season, Mount Snow ran through April 24, which was longer than most seasons. Okemo ran through April 17 which is their historical standard closing weekend.

Many people choose free-floating hatred as their driving force. The marketplace speaks for itself. Vail stock still is performing well and your implication that "nobody skis at Vail areas: they're too crowded" just doesn't hold up to reasonable scrutiny.

 

[thetrailboss]

More nonsense.

Under Peak Resorts, Crotched Mountain opened in mid-December with a limited schedule. Under Vail this year we opened in early December with a full schedule.
Vail resorts, Mount Snow opened one day after Killington opened and Okemo opened two days after Killington opened. Not what you'd expect if they were skimping.
Last season, Mount Snow ran through April 24, which was longer than most seasons. Okemo ran through April 17 which is their historical standard closing weekend.

Many people choose free-floating hatred as their driving force. The marketplace speaks for itself. Vail stock still is performing well and your implication that "nobody skis at Vail areas: they're too crowded" just doesn't hold up to reasonable scrutiny.

One season a pattern does not make.

 

[deadheadskier]

More nonsense.

Under Peak Resorts, Crotched Mountain opened in mid-December with a limited schedule. Under Vail this year we opened in early December with a full schedule.
Vail resorts, Mount Snow opened one day after Killington opened and Okemo opened two days after Killington opened. Not what you'd expect if they were skimping.
Last season, Mount Snow ran through April 24, which was longer than most seasons. Okemo ran through April 17 which is their historical standard closing weekend.

Many people choose free-floating hatred as their driving force. The marketplace speaks for itself. Vail stock still is performing well and your implication that "nobody skis at Vail areas: they're too crowded" just doesn't hold up to reasonable scrutiny.

Get a grip Josh. I never said "nobody skis at Vail areas: they're too crowded". My argument has always been their facilities are now too crowded and it's due to the cheap pass. I stated in this thread I'd rather see Stowe be more expensive and generate the same revenue off fewer people and deliver a more premium product. I feel the same about the NH areas and the one I care most about, Wildcat, had it's season chopped a month.

Those have been my two most skied areas of the past 30 years. Stowe from 95-05, Wildcat then until now. Both offered a much better product pre Vail. That's not "free-floating hatred." That's hundreds of ski days as witness at both those areas. And virtually all my long time Stowe buddies and Wildcat buddies are 100% in agreement. I've never had a single person say to me they like Stowe or Wildcat better under Vail.

Maybe John Q public has lower expectations than I do or they weren't around to experience better times at these areas. Apparently if the pass is cheap enough, the masses will always come. It certainly isn't the product quality. You know, like Walmart.

Second time you brought up Happy Stockholders. You think I give a shit about them / that?

 

[abc]

your implication that "nobody skis at Vail areas: they're too crowded" just doesn't hold up to reasonable scrutiny

That phrase got brandished around a lot, as “unreasonable”. But there’s actually quite a lot of acid truth in it. It’s quite hard to stomach for some.

“Nobody that’s anybody goes there any more. Only the crowd of riff raff continue to go there, and making a mockery of what used to be a nice place“

Sure, it sound incredibly elitist. And it is. But that’s what the phrase REALLY meant. Like it or not, many of this board‘s posters are the “elite” in skiing.

Jackson and Aspen used to be kind of exclusive. But the rich had moved on, to Telluride for example. I wonder how long will it take for those two be label by that phrase? Same thing is happening in many other less exclusive mountains.