Hurricane Irene

[riverc0il]

updates

For what it is worth, by Tuesday the flooding was all but gone when the students moved in and all roads were back open. Monday was bat shit crazy around here. In many cases, you had to travel two or three exits in the wrong direction just to turn around and go back to another exit that was open. If you were trying to go anywhere between Ashland and Thornton on Monday and you didn't know the roads, you could easy drive over 20 miles between the exits trying to figure it out.

Based on what I saw on Monday, I don't think the flooding is the worst ever but definitely in the top three in the past century I would guess. Both gas stations off the Plymouth exit are shut down. I was surprised the Ice Hockey rink flooded as it was supposedly built to resist flooding because 175A floods so often.

It was a strange flood because it came and went so quickly. The more typical flood happens in the spring due to ice blockage and can flood for several days at a time though not as high. Any damage to the University was limited to the ground floor of the Ice Rink and P.E. center on the Holderness side. Plymouth side of the river was all high and dry excepting a wash out on Route 3 south of the town. Baker river was crazy high, only a foot or two short of the bridge it seemed on Monday.

 

[riverc0il]

If flood insurance were eleminated, most people wouldn't be able to afford to rebuild, so they'd have to move after a flood, but that's not a very good solution, either.

Actually, that might be the best situation. Perhaps only people that could afford a rebuild should risk living in a flood zone. To think that is not the best course of action is to think that our tax dollars should subsidize those that build in flood plains and need FEMA funds to rebuild. If people are protected, they are going to do things they might not otherwise do.

This would be somewhat harmful to small rural downtowns which get built along rivers (such as VT) so perhaps exceptions should be made in those cases. But the same reasoning encourages the well to do to build ocean front property in risky areas. No easy answer here, but I do think the answer should not be carte blanche disaster relief for everyone that is flooded out despite building property in a risky area.... and especially if said property is expensive to build on.

And, for what it is worth, this is an intellectual argument/discussion point only. Obviously, based on our current system, as much help as can be provided to all the home owners that lost everything and are in need should be done.

 

[mondeo]

Actually, that might be the best situation. Perhaps only people that could afford a rebuild should risk living in a flood zone. To think that is not the best course of action is to think that our tax dollars should subsidize those that build in flood plains and need FEMA funds to rebuild. If people are protected, they are going to do things they might not otherwise do.

This would be somewhat harmful to small rural downtowns which get built along rivers (such as VT) so perhaps exceptions should be made in those cases. But the same reasoning encourages the well to do to build ocean front property in risky areas. No easy answer here, but I do think the answer should not be carte blanche disaster relief for everyone that is flooded out despite building property in a risky area.... and especially if said property is expensive to build on.

And, for what it is worth, this is an intellectual argument/discussion point only. Obviously, based on our current system, as much help as can be provided to all the home owners that lost everything and are in need should be done.

I'd have insurance tied to NOT rebuilding in a flood zone. Ok, if you've lived in a flood zone for 10 years and when you bought the rules were that you could get flood insurance subsidized, fine. Not fair to change the rules on you. But rebuilding year after year like they do on the Mississippi just doesn't make sense. Give the flood plains back to the river, and everything gets better.

 

[WJenness]

More developments: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/01/us/01flood.html?_r=1

-w

 

[billski]

Back to Human impacts of Irene

I've been listening to the Vermont public radio podcasts (available on the web), most especially the broadcast from Wed. August 31.

These reports are extremely unsettling as they move the discussion from physical infrastructure to human impact. Perhaps the most disturbing are the continuing missing persons reports. VPR is acting as a pseudo-clearing house, along with the Red Cross for announcing missing people, including physical characteristics, where last seen and when.

The folks with extremely critical medical conditions, including ventilators and medicines find it difficult to contact an agency to help them. The characteristically Vermont widespread location of Vermont residents makes it even more difficult. My good friend's father lives in a hamlet near Mt. Holly VT. He is quite popular as he is the only one in the area that still has a rotary phone, the only mode that is working. Modern technology has a way of failing when only the basic of modes is necessary.

The discussion about rebuilding a road to get to these people is difficult. The state police have resorted to ATVs and reports of people searching about on horseback are very unsettling. Day to day living has been overturned. Personal hygiene issues are beginning to be felt. A cemetery uprooted must be awful to the loved ones.

Reports also indicate that too many volunteers is making it difficult to manage. I agree with the prior poster that financial donations are probably the most useful right now.

For those interested in NNY issues, look to North Country Public Radio, which also has disturbing broadcasts also converted to podcast here.

 

[drjeff]

I've been listening to the Vermont public radio podcasts (available on the web), most especially the broadcast from Wed. August 31.

These reports are extremely unsettling as they move the discussion from physical infrastructure to human impact. Perhaps the most disturbing are the continuing missing persons reports. VPR is acting as a pseudo-clearing house, along with the Red Cross for announcing missing people, including physical characteristics, where last seen and when.

The folks with extremely critical medical conditions, including ventilators and medicines find it difficult to contact an agency to help them. The characteristically Vermont widespread location of Vermont residents makes it even more difficult. My good friend's father lives in a hamlet near Mt. Holly VT. He is quite popular as he is the only one in the area that still has a rotary phone, the only mode that is working. Modern technology has a way of failing when only the basic of modes is necessary.

The discussion about rebuilding a road to get to these people is difficult. The state police have resorted to ATVs and reports of people searching about on horseback are very unsettling. Day to day living has been overturned. Personal hygiene issues are beginning to be felt. A cemetery uprooted must be awful to the loved ones.

Reports also indicate that too many volunteers is making it difficult to manage. I agree with the prior poster that financial donations are probably the most useful right now.

For those interested in NNY issues, look to North Country Public Radio, which also has disturbing broadcasts also converted to podcast here.

Exactly! At a time like this, in the communties that have been hit the hardest where basic infastructure is in shambles, the overwhelming desire that so many have to come help physically might actually hinder the effort and add to the chaos. With the national guard and army corp of engineers onsite in many of the hardest hit areas, just letting them do their job and work with the local crews is enough in most cases. If they need more physical help, i'm sure that they won't hestitate to ask. But as tough as it may be to fathom, if a disaster cooordinator has to continually stop and explain to new people what they can do over and over and over all day long, that effects the response effort in a negative way. In the hardest hit of communties there will be a time soon when mass quantities of physical labor will be appreciated, but right now the needs are for much fewer folks with very specialized tasks (ATV transports/deliveries, etc) rather than just 500 people showing up to help clear debris.

 

[Glenn]

Here's an update from Mt Snow with pictures. The fact that employees are doing whatever they can to get there to help is amazing.

http://mountsnow.com/gm-blog-irene/

 

[ctenidae]

I'd have insurance tied to NOT rebuilding in a flood zone. Ok, if you've lived in a flood zone for 10 years and when you bought the rules were that you could get flood insurance subsidized, fine. Not fair to change the rules on you. But rebuilding year after year like they do on the Mississippi just doesn't make sense. Give the flood plains back to the river, and everything gets better.

Farmers commuting several hours each way to get to their fields isn't a very good plan, though.

 

[mondeo]

Farmers commuting several hours each way to get to their fields isn't a very good plan, though.

Wouldn't be several hours, the river valley's a maximum of 81 miles, minimum of 20. They're going to be commuting for some of that anyways, and maybe you go to 50 year flood plains instead of 100. And then building levys to protect against a 25 or 50 year flood becomes much easier and robust. Doing things like rebuilding an entire city below sea level just sets you up to do it again.

 

[Nick]

I was wondering that too. When the second truck starts to float on the other side of the bridge you can see air escaping out of the cab as it bobs from side to side. I was thinking that the cabs may be somewhat water tight, enough for an air bubble to form long enough to cross relatively short distances? There was two guys in the back of the second truck, not sure about them.

It looked to me like two of the passengers were civilians, probably reporters, since they weren't wearing fatigues. Also the soldier that first climbed out of the back of the second truck appeared to have an expensive looking DSLR (white lenses generally aren't cheap) in his hands that he put on the roof before helping the second guy out (who was wearing a red shirt). The second guy appears to be checking out and/or using the camera as soon as he's half way out.

Wow you were way more observant than I was in that video!

 

[riverc0il]

Farmers commuting several hours each way to get to their fields isn't a very good plan, though.

Many VT farms are upon hills so that they are off the flood plain....

 

[Abubob]

Based on what I saw on Monday, I don't think the flooding is the worst ever but definitely in the top three in the past century I would guess. Both gas stations off the Plymouth exit are shut down. I was surprised the Ice Hockey rink flooded as it was supposedly built to resist flooding because 175A floods so often.

I may as well post my photos of flooding. These in Plymouth and what little effect Irene had in Bristol NH: Bridge Street Plymouth

 

[ski stef]

Was tracking the hurricane while I was away and can't believe it..happy to not have been in VT at the time but wish I could have been there to help out friends and families that were affected in SoVT. Haven't heard any news on the lake I live on..hoping that our house has not sustained to much damage. Still waiting to hear back from our neighbors with fingers crossed. Glad this has passed and i am excited to return to VT to give a little back.

 

[ctenidae]

Many VT farms are upon hills so that they are off the flood plain....

They aren't along the Mississippi and across the midwest, though.

 

[ctenidae]

Wouldn't be several hours, the river valley's a maximum of 81 miles, minimum of 20. They're going to be commuting for some of that anyways, and maybe you go to 50 year flood plains instead of 100. And then building levys to protect against a 25 or 50 year flood becomes much easier and robust. Doing things like rebuilding an entire city below sea level just sets you up to do it again.

Can't disagree with most of that. Cna't think it's gonna happen, either, but can't disagree.

 

[Glenn]

The last thing VT needs now is more rain. Theyre saying 2-3" could fall Sunday into Monday.

 

[Geoff]

Perhaps only people that could afford a rebuild should risk living in a flood zone.

Most of the people who lost their houses in Vermont weren't affluent. They bought a house in a flood zone right next to a major highway because that's the only thing they could afford. Those people also couldn't afford flood insurance so they're not making insurance claims. This isn't like rich people with oceanfront property in Hatteras who let the rest of the country subsidize their vacation homes. These are mostly $10.00/hour people who heat with wood they cut and split themselves.

 

[Ski Diva]

Whew, this is a long thread! Rather than read back 28 pages to see if I'm going to repeat anything, I'm going to past what's been going on in my locality.

I live in Plymouth, VT, which is on Route 100 halfway between Ludlow and where it abuts Route 4. The damage here has been extensive. Parts of the township are for all intents and purposes cut off; the people in Plymouth Notch (100A) for example, have access only via a dirt road that was just put in a couple days ago. The same for those in Plymouth Union, which is the area you see along 100.

I took a few photos after the storm. These are on the Reading Tyson Road, the road that runs between Route 100 in Tyson and Route 106 in Reading. The road is G-O-N-E.

Needless to say, many roads are closed, so it's very difficult to get around. I have two means of access from my house. One is rapidly deteriorating and may well be gone after tonight/tomorrow's storm, and the other is a dirt road that was indeed washed out, was somewhat restored (though it gives me a heart attack to drive it) and could wash out again.

This is the road that's deteriorating. It's gone from 2 lanes to one since the storm ended:

Gives me the shakes just to look at it!

A lot of progress has been made. There's heavy equipment everywhere, and people are working like dogs to restore roads. God bless them. But the task is monumental, and the window of time between now and when the ground freezes is short. Plus the storm tonight won't help.

For those of you who want to come up here and just look around, I mean this in the nicest way: stay home! At least for a little while. Many of the roads are unstable, and workers are trying to get a handle on things and get repairs done as quickly as possible. The fewer people driving around, the better.

We're very fortunate -- we have food, power, water, internet, and our home. A lot of people don't. The farm where I got my produce, for example, was entirely washed away. It's heartbreaking.

If you haven't donated to the flood relief yet, please please please do so. There are a lot of ways to help, and rather than post them all here, I'll provide a link to where many of them are listed:

http://vtdigger.org/2011/09/02/vermontaid-a-guide-to-flood-relief-help-for-vermonters/

Thank you.

 

[threecy]

They bought a house in a flood zone right next to a major highway because that's the only thing they could afford. Those people also couldn't afford flood insurance so they're not making insurance claims.

I couldn't help but nitpick on this - unless they paid cash for the house, they likely would have been required to purchase and continue to pay for flood insurance in order to obtain a Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac backed loan.

 

[Geoff]

I couldn't help but nitpick on this - unless they paid cash for the house, they likely would have been required to purchase and continue to pay for flood insurance in order to obtain a Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac backed loan.

You are projecting flatland mobility and business practices on rural Vermont. In Vermont, people own houses for many decades. When most of them were purchased, they went to the local bank and took out a loan. There was no Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac involved and flood insurance was cheap because that was before rich people started building oceanfront trophy homes that made flood insurance unaffordable.

I know that in Bridgewater, VT, only two of the homes that were flooded had flood insurance. Nobody can afford it.