VT is interesting. 6 houses or so down from me is a guy with a Z-28, with a loud aftermarket exhaust and about 4 old pickups in various state of repair around his property. 3 houses up, a left leaning lesbian couple complete with the Subuaru and rainbow stickers. But there certainly is a lot of smug in our local area.
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Hybrid quandry
- Thread starter noski
- Start date
VT is interesting. 6 houses or so down from me is a guy with a Z-28, with a loud aftermarket exhaust and about 4 old pickups in various state of repair around his property. 3 houses up, a left leaning lesbian couple complete with the Subuaru and rainbow stickers. But there certainly is a lot of smug in our local area.
Marc
New member
You forgot to tell us if they are lipstick lesbians or not.
We've yet to meet them. But based on the short hair and lack of makeup, I'd say more of the flannel and work boots type.
noski
New member
Our pickup is for Mr. noski- it's still fairly new, and he could take me to work/pick me up on the bad days. My 06 Escape is a lease that is up. My 'rough terrain' drive is one of Fayston throughway's- Center Fayston Rd/Kew Vasseur Rd, for those who know MRV, but it's a gravel road that goes from Rt 100's 800' elevation to 1750' in under 3 miles, so a steady grade, with some sections much steeper than others. Kids are grown (one gone one has his own wheels), so no need to lug much around.
There are many times I am grateful for my gravel road and feel bad for those who have to travel the Interstate....
ckofer
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Question about hybrids: I feel that they are a better city vehicle for environmental reasons but want to know something. If you were stuck downtown Boston, NYC, Hartford etc on a hot summer day and running AC, would you need the gas engine soon to run that system? I could google this but thought I would go right to the experts.
Edd
Well-known member
The hybrid thing is on my brain lately too. My 02 Legacy has 145,000 on it. It's very reliable but all cars start to die so I'm looking at options while it still runs well.
My first impulse is to get an Outback or Forester, probably a 2009 since the 2010s are right around the corner and good deals on 09s should be out there.
However, if truly widespread hybrid technology is around the corner, how much would a conventional gas car, purchased today, be worth in 4-5 years? I don't have a crystal ball but I'm wondering if a Prius with snow tires makes more sense.
My first impulse is to get an Outback or Forester, probably a 2009 since the 2010s are right around the corner and good deals on 09s should be out there.
However, if truly widespread hybrid technology is around the corner, how much would a conventional gas car, purchased today, be worth in 4-5 years? I don't have a crystal ball but I'm wondering if a Prius with snow tires makes more sense.
noski
New member
I would vote against that. One of my MRV neighbors (an exec at Seventh Generation- so green is his middle name) is very sorry he got a prius. He hates it in winter. He said on one trip down our gravel hill he started sliding (a normal experience) and the car all but shut down- the normal steer into the skid/punch gas etc. didn't work. My in-laws have a Prius and after a good soaking rain, couldn't make it up our driveway- in May! I don't think the Prius has enough pep-and-heft for our type of winter driving. Maybe in the city.....
mondeo
New member
Eventually, yes. The battery is kept between 30% and 80% charged. Once you hit the 30%, you're on the engine. As much as I enjoy doing some simple calculations with values that I can guess at pretty readily (like the acceleration vs cruising energy one,) I'd go to Google myself to figure out how long in practice.
mondeo
New member
Before or after the battery pack is replaced? All other maintenance costs are probably relatively equal, and when it comes down to it there really isn't that big a difference in mileage.
Edd
Well-known member
Well....a Prius is rated for 48mpg while a 2009 Outback (around the same size) is rated for 26mpg highway. I'm calling that a big difference.
Edd
Well-known member
That story rings true to me, unfortunately. I test drove a Prius 2 years ago, and the driving experience fell below my low expectations.
Did your neighbor have snow tires on that Prius?
RootDKJ
New member
At least in the two Ford Escape's I've driven, yes. The AC compressor is dependent on the gas engine to run. The circulation system is not.
mondeo
New member
Yep, all those AWD Prii out there...
Hawkshot99
Active member
They are slightly different cars to be comparing.
Edd
Well-known member
Exactly, hence my remark about snow tires. I've got zero experience with them but if you believe folks like Rivercoil, they beat AWD. Assuming that's true, those mileage stats take on a greater significance.
It seems clear some hybrid models are more effective than others. The difference between the standard Honda Civic and the hybrid is shown here: http://www.cars.com/go/compare/modelCompare.jsp?myids=10584,10590
riverc0il
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I get a little flip in my remarks about snow tires versus AWD. For me, I will always have snow tires on my car in the winter, AWD or not. That said, I would indeed take snows without AWD rather than AWD without snows.
Any ways, you could save yourself $10k+ and simply get a cheap economy car that gets 35-40 MPG highway and that has less repair costs. True, you'll make up some money with a Prius but you'll never make even close to enough money back to make it worth the hassle.
ComeBackMudPuddles
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the new fusion is supposed to be really great. if you don't "need" the utility of the escape, then go with the fusion. a nice ride.
regarding the idea of hybrids, they may not always pay back the owner quickly in terms of monetary savings (especially at low-ish gas prices), but, there's no disputing that they use less gas and pollute less, so that's a good thing. also, i think you'll tend to see gas prices go up rather than down. once the ecoonomy gets going again, the price of oil will surely go up and the hybrid car calculation will look better.
regarding the idea of hybrids, they may not always pay back the owner quickly in terms of monetary savings (especially at low-ish gas prices), but, there's no disputing that they use less gas and pollute less, so that's a good thing. also, i think you'll tend to see gas prices go up rather than down. once the ecoonomy gets going again, the price of oil will surely go up and the hybrid car calculation will look better.
mondeo
New member
But that is the dispute. There is a definate increase in the amount of energy it takes to make a hybrid; some analyses come out in favor of a Hummer over a Prius when you look at life cycle energy consumption. I don't necessarily believe them 100%, but there's a definate up front pollution cost associated with hybrids, and again with battery disposal.
ComeBackMudPuddles
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do you have links to a study like that? i'm not saying it's not true, but hybrids do make use of much smaller engines, which should take a corresponding less amount of energy to produce.
regarding the "total energy consumed" point, it might take more units of energy to make a hybrid car, but the type of energy is important. you can make an argument that even if it takes more total energy to construct and run the hybrid than a conventional car, the fact that the hybrid uses less oil to run (and more of, say, coal?) to construct, is better from a pollution standpoint (don't know if that's true) and energy independence standpoint (that should be true).
That fact that you're making a smaller engine is true...but that car has two drive systems...a gasoline engine and an electric motor. When you're done slapping that thing together, I'm sure it takes just as much, if no more resources than your standard car. Oh, and let's not forget the number of batteries in that thing either.
If you're current car is on it's last legs and you plan on keeping your potential new hybrid for 10 to 15 years...then it makes sense...sorta.
If your current car is fine and you're getting a hybrid to...well, to get a hybrid, than that's somewhat of a waste. I personally can't justify myself getting rid of a perfectly good working vehicle; but that's just me.
If you look at that link that posted...showing the difference between the gasoline Civic in and the Hybrid.
The gasoline car will average (equal mix of city and highway calculated for ease of math) 28mpg. The hybrid will get 42.5 MPG. "Holly Steezeasaurus! Hybrid! Get it!"
at 12k miles per year: Gasoline- 428.5 gallons, Hybrid 282 gallons.
Cost at $2.50: $1,071.25 gasoline, $705 Difference: $366.25. So that's you're gas savings.
Lets say you went for the most fuel efficient gasoline Civic, which I'm going to assume is the base model...with the least amount of options and probably a manual. $15,305 the hybrid costs: $23,650 Difference: $8,345. It'll take you 22 years to break even.
"But what if gas goes up!"
$5 a gallon:
Gasoline: $2,142.5
Hybrid: $1,410
Difference: $732. Payout...10+ years.
I'm convinced people never calculate things out like this. Even when gas went crazy last summer, people were Henny Pennying around, ditching perfectly good larger vehicles for smaller ones. This was further exasperated by our very reliable friends: Supply and Demand. Demand for small cars went up, big cars went down. So people took a huge hit on trading in large vehicles and paid more for smaller. Buying high, selling low.
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