Hybrid quandry

[ComeBackMudPuddles]

Lets say you went for the most fuel efficient gasoline Civic, which I'm going to assume is the base model...with the least amount of options and probably a manual. $15,305 the hybrid costs: $23,650 Difference: $8,345. It'll take you 22 years to break even.

"But what if gas goes up!"

$5 a gallon:
Gasoline: $2,142.5
Hybrid: $1,410

Difference: $732. Payout...10+ years.

I'm convinced people never calculate things out like this. Even when gas went crazy last summer, people were Henny Pennying around, ditching perfectly good larger vehicles for smaller ones. This was further exasperated by our very reliable friends: Supply and Demand. Demand for small cars went up, big cars went down. So people took a huge hit on trading in large vehicles and paid more for smaller. Buying high, selling low.

i'm a little lazy today, so i'll just say that i doubt this math is correct, b/c i bet that the "base" hybrid civic comes standard with all sorts of features that are options on the base gas-powered civic. put it another way, i don't think the hybrid engine is the only difference between the cars, and that the hybrid otherwise costs over $8k more on the civic.

you have to compare models that are identical equipment-wise but for the gas vs. hybrid difference.

 

[ctenidae]

i'm a little lazy today, so i'll just say that i doubt this math is correct, b/c i bet that the "base" hybrid civic comes standard with all sorts of features that are options on the base gas-powered civic. put it another way, i don't think the hybrid engine is the only difference between the cars, and that the hybrid otherwise costs over $8k more on the civic.

you have to compare models that are identical equipment-wise but for the gas vs. hybrid difference.

Unfortunately, it's pretty much impossible to compare apples to apples entirely. All of the math is suspect, but directionally seems to be correct- really, I've never seen anyone argue that the price differential on a hybrid is made up in a reasonable time. I recall reading an article in Car and Driver, or somesuch, recently that did a pretty good job of adjusting the prices for what were options on one model and standard on the other- at least, they considered a lot of points. Math still didn't work out in the hybrid's favor.I have seen it done on diesels, but it's barely, if I recall correctly.

Bottom line, though- most people don't buy a hybrid to save money. They do it to save teh planet, or to satisfy some other philosophical need, which is fine. I'm glad they do- at teh very least, it sends a market signal to the car companies that research into the field pays off, which is good. I can't wait until I get my Mr. Fusion-powered all-electric car that runs off table scraps.

 

[Geoff]

Math still didn't work out in the hybrid's favor.I have seen it done on diesels, but it's barely, if I recall correctly.

The problem with the math on diesels is that the math is usually done using 'sticker price'. At least with VWs, you never see diesels discounted. Right now, the 2L turbodiesel engine is in short supply due to European demand so VW isn't shipping many to the US. I doubt you could buy one for less than sticker price. If you use 'actual purchase price' in your calculations and assume you're going to operate the car for 150,000 miles where the spread on a private sale gasoline model and a diesel model is small, you are really unlikely to get your money back on the improved fuel economy. If you have access to ag, marine, or off-road diesel that isn't taxed, it turns out to be a win but you have a slight risk that an inspector will syphon a little fuel out of your tank and give you a big fine because it's an illegal dye color. I'd guess half the diesel pickups on the road are running illegal fuel at least some of the time.

 

[RootDKJ]

If you have access to ag, marine, or off-road diesel that isn't taxed, it turns out to be a win but you have a slight risk that an inspector will syphon a little fuel out of your tank and give you a big fine because it's an illegal dye color. I'd guess half the diesel pickups on the road are running illegal fuel at least some of the time.

How often do you think that really happens? I've never heard of anyone getting their fuel inspected at any sort of check point.

I know a guy who does it that all the time. I don't think he's ever had an issue.

 

[ctenidae]

How often do you think that really happens? I've never heard of anyone getting their fuel inspected at any sort of check point.

I know a guy who does it that all the time. I don't think he's ever had an issue.

Semis get checked sometimes for ultra low sulfur diesel, but it'd be a real ass of a cop to check a car for the right dye color.

 

[Geoff]

Semis get checked sometimes for ultra low sulfur diesel, but it'd be a real ass of a cop to check a car for the right dye color.

It depends where you are and who pulls you over. If a Vermont Department of Transportation guy pulls over a diesel pickup, they'll check the fuel. I've seen them flag down big pickups and stake bed trucks on Route 4 in West Bridgewater near the Long Trail Brewery where they occasionally do spot truck "safety inspections". I doubt any State Trooper, town cop, or rent-a-sheriff would do it.

 

[Glenn]

It depends where you are and who pulls you over. If a Vermont Department of Transportation guy pulls over a diesel pickup, they'll check the fuel. I've seen them flag down big pickups and stake bed trucks on Route 4 in West Bridgewater near the Long Trail Brewery where they occasionally do spot truck "safety inspections". I doubt any State Trooper, town cop, or rent-a-sheriff would do it.

No kidding? Now that's interesting. I've never heard of that before.

Then again, right at the gas station off of Exit 3, you can buy off-road diesel from the pump. It would certainly take a certain amount of "brass" to just fill up your vehicle there. I imagine filling cans, or one of those transfer tanks mounted to the bed would be a better option.

I think there are probably "bigger fish to fry" than guys in duallies...but that's just me.

 

[mondeo]

do you have links to a study like that? i'm not saying it's not true, but hybrids do make use of much smaller engines, which should take a corresponding less amount of energy to produce.

regarding the "total energy consumed" point, it might take more units of energy to make a hybrid car, but the type of energy is important. you can make an argument that even if it takes more total energy to construct and run the hybrid than a conventional car, the fact that the hybrid uses less oil to run (and more of, say, coal?) to construct, is better from a pollution standpoint (don't know if that's true) and energy independence standpoint (that should be true).

Don't have the study for the Hummer vs. Prius and don't particularly believe it to be true; at least, it's probably a very myopic case study to prove a point. Never something to be completely trusted, but it at least shines a light on the issue.

I doubt differently sized engines take that much different energy to produce, at least if you're keeping the cylinder count the same. Sure, maybe a little more metal, but same machining operations, valves, cylinder liners, crankshafts, etc. are all about the same,...

Really the point is that you can't just look at gas consumption and say one is better than the other because of the beginning and end of life complications. I don't think anyone's actually done that study in a reliable way.

 

[noski]

...Did I mention the tax incentive of $1750 for the hybrid and the sales tax deduction to boot?

 

[ComeBackMudPuddles]

...Did I mention the tax incentive of $1750 for the hybrid and the sales tax deduction to boot?

i thought those hybrid incentives have been phased out......

 

[noski]

i thought those hybrid incentives have been phased out......

Ford Fusion Hybrid - $3,400 (until 3/31/09, then halved--expires 4/1/10) ...so $1700 incentive for the Fusion...but not the 2010 Escape, only the 2009.

 

[noski]

I ended up with the 2010 Ford Fusion, AWD. I didn't opt for the Hybrid. I had to order it so I don't actually have it yet.

 

[WJenness]

I ended up with the 2010 Ford Fusion, AWD. I didn't opt for the Hybrid. I had to order it so I don't actually have it yet.

One of my co-workers has a fusion. I was impressed with the quality inside the car. Much better than Fords of 10 years ago.

My biggest issue with it was the lack of headroom in the passenger seat. I'm 6'4" and the passenger seat in her car didn't have height adjustment, so my choices were: slouch, lean the seat way back, or get a crick in my neck.

Other than that, it seemed like a very well put together car...

Unfortunately, the lack of a standard transmission in anything other than the base model immediately deletes it from any potential shopping list for me.

-w

 

[Marc]

One of my co-workers has a fusion. I was impressed with the quality inside the car. Much better than Fords of 10 years ago.

My biggest issue with it was the lack of headroom in the passenger seat. I'm 6'4" and the passenger seat in her car didn't have height adjustment, so my choices were: slouch, lean the seat way back, or get a crick in my neck, don't be so freakishly tall

Fixed that for you.

 

[WJenness]

So 99.2% of guys in my age bracket are shorter than me... (source: http://www.allcountries.org/uscensus/230_cumulative_percent_distribution_of_population_by.html ) Don't make it sound like I'm some kind of statistical freak... geez...







Oh, wait...


-w

 

[Glenn]

I ended up with the 2010 Ford Fusion, AWD. I didn't opt for the Hybrid. I had to order it so I don't actually have it yet.

Cool, post pics when you get it. You're exempt from burnout pics since it's AWD. But you'll have to do a Finnish Flick the first time it snows. A vid of that would be sweet.

 

[noski]

Cool, post pics when you get it. You're exempt from burnout pics since it's AWD. But you'll have to do a Finnish Flick the first time it snows. A vid of that would be sweet.

Trust me, I have considered that technique more than once as I drive down my MRV steep, back-country road. Down being the key here....