Is 4WD/AWD a neccesity on your ski vehicle?

[thinnmann]

Wrong, but if you want to justify upwards of a grand for that nice smug feeling, then so be it. FWD with snows does not trump AWD with anything.

Again, its the driver, not some tire that you spent to much money on for a warm feeling inside.

Upwards of a grand? You are shopping for tires at the wrong places. Checkout http://www.treadepot.com and get them mounted and balanced for free at your local vocational school. Even my dealer does it for only $19 per tire.

Everyones argument for FWD with snows assumes one has no ability to drive in adverse conditions whatsoever.

As Bob points out, a little bit more throttle in a slide situation and your going to get out of it with AWD, snow tires and fwd and youll just keep sliding along. Brakes are the enemy regardless of powertrain in snow.

A good driver knows this, a shitty one thinks the snow tires will save him. Which one are you?

When I am posting about this, I am assuming the same conditions with the same driver abilities in both theoretical vehicles.
So...
In the FWD w/snows vs. the AWD without example you give above, the FWD w/snows would have been significantly less likely to start the slide at all, given the same conditions. The snows also reduce the likelihood that "brakes are the enemy", because they would work to stop you.

By the way, I just keep posting here because it is fun, and I would rather be posting about how great the conditions are at the mountain.... but there just isn't enough snow to be talking about that!

 

[ERJ-145CA]

Back in college I drove a Corolla from work back to college in a foot of un-plowed snow. Probably about 8 miles on the un-plowed road. No snow tires. It was dumping so hard that I could only see about 10 feet ahead of the hood. I didn't get stuck until I got in the parking lot of the college but it was almost in a space so I left it there. Had to get back to school to party.

It was pretty loose powder BTW, at the time I wasn't skiing though.

 

[riverc0il]

I would think somebody who deals with snow more often would need snow tire less as they are more acustom to driving in the snow?

This is pretty weird reasoning. By that logic, I should be able to ski just as well on any type of ski because I ski so much and have good fundamentals. I could probably get by with a significant number of different skis but its a lot harder to get the job done without the right tool.

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

This is pretty weird reasoning. By that logic, I should be able to ski just as well on any type of ski because I ski so much and have good fundamentals. I could probably get by with a significant number of different skis but its a lot harder to get the job done without the right tool.

No more weird then your original reasoning. So your telling me somebody in the flat lands near the ocean that sees less snow wouldn't be better served with more tools at their disposal when they get the less frequent snowstorm? Are your winter/snow tires studded?

 

[BenedictGomez]

I've really been avoiding this thread and lurking. But I have to comment that some of the "pro snow tire" people seem to be completely unaware that snow tires really DONT help much in deep snow (actually, some of the "pro snow tire" folk have said exactly the opposite).

The fact is, BOTH all-season tires and snow tires are going to lose much or all of their traction advantage in deep snow. So for ice and light snow? Sure, snow tires are great and better than all-seasons. But if it's bombing 1 inch per hour of snow and/or the snow is already piled up several inches on the roads, those snow tires are pretty much overwhelmed and neutered.

 

[BigJay]

This is pretty weird reasoning. By that logic, I should be able to ski just as well on any type of ski because I ski so much and have good fundamentals. I could probably get by with a significant number of different skis but its a lot harder to get the job done without the right tool.

But you should be able to ski on any types of skis... but you won't kill anyone by doing so.

Today, there was a school bus stuck in the ditch next to the dip... because he couldn't keep speed behind a slipping pick-up on RWD.

Oh, and by the way, in Qc, winter tires are mandatory from Dec 15th to March 15th.

They should be in VT and NH as well... sometimes, someone need to make smart decisions for you.

 

[thinnmann]

I've really been avoiding this thread and lurking. But I have to comment that some of the "pro snow tire" people seem to be completely unaware that snow tires really DONT help much in deep snow (actually, some of the "pro snow tire" folk have said exactly the opposite).

The fact is, BOTH all-season tires and snow tires are going to lose much or all of their traction advantage in deep snow. So for ice and light snow? Sure, snow tires are great and better than all-seasons. But if it's bombing 1 inch per hour of snow and/or the snow is already piled up several inches on the roads, those snow tires are pretty much overwhelmed and neutered.

Do you have the data on "snow tires really DONT help much in deep snow"? Because in my experience, the snows work wonders compared to regular tires in exactly those conditions. They are directionally engineered to compact the snow into a surface that gives them purchase. You have to experience it directly. Seriously. And do read the tire reviews, because the snow tires themselves vary in their abilities.

People who ride mountain bikes might see it more clearly. On soft surfaces, like mud and snow, there is a huge difference between a tire with widely spaced knobs, and one with tightly spaced tread, even if the tightly spaced tread is aggressive. The tightly spaced tread (like all-season tires) picks up the mud or snow, holds it to the tire, and traction is almost immediately lost. The widely spaced knobs (like snow tires) compact the surface, bite into it, then shed the mud or snow immediately to ready the tire for the next rotation. Change the tires, and it is like riding an entirely different bike.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Do you have the data on "snow tires really DONT help much in deep snow"? Because in my experience, the snows work wonders compared to regular tires in exactly those conditions.

By "regular" do you mean summer tires? Because if so, then, well sure. But if you mean all-seasons, then snow tires are still better, just not dramatically so once it gets deep (though snow tires fared much better than all-seasons on ice and light snowy roads).

But this was originally a 4WD with all-seasons vs. 2WD with snow tires conversation, and after some reading some research from Popular Mechanic and a few others, yes, I'd take 4WD with all-seasons over 2WD with snow tires every time.

The 4WD was better at"not getting stuck", the 4WD destroyed the 2WD at accelerating (73% better), and the 4WD beat the 2WD at hill climbing by 63% (important in ski country). This makes sense as these are all "drive" applications.

The 2WD was better at skid control (but only by 10%), and at the "breaking at 60mph" test (but only by 4%) at 8.17 seconds 2WD w/snows versus 8.5 seconds 4WD w/all-seasons.

The choice is pretty clear to me. I mean, yeah, obviously 4WD WITH snow tires is clearly the best choice, but given the parameters of the conversation, I'll take 4WD with jack-of-all-trades and master-of-none all-season tires over the 2WD with the better specialized snow tires.

 

[thinnmann]

The 4WD was better at"not getting stuck", the 4WD destroyed the 2WD at accelerating (73% better), and the 4WD beat the 2WD at hill climbing by 63% (important in ski country). This makes sense as these are all "drive" applications.

The 2WD was better at skid control (but only by 10%), and at the "breaking at 60mph" test (but only by 4%) at 8.17 seconds 2WD w/snows versus 8.5 seconds 4WD w/all-seasons.

The choice is pretty clear to me. I mean, yeah, obviously 4WD WITH snow tires is clearly the best choice, but given the parameters the OP set up, I'll take 4WD with jack-of-all-trades and master-of-none all-seasons over the 2WD with the better specialized snow tires.

Cool! I am glad someone has come up with data! Do you have a link, by any chance? If that data is more than about 5 years old, however, the tread design and rubber compounds have come a long way since then.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Cool! I am glad someone has come up with data! Do you have a link, by any chance? If that data is more than about 5 years old, however, the tread design and rubber compounds have come a long way since then.

I actually looked at a bunch of articles, the one I posted most of the above from is 2 weeks old and from Popular Mechanics (link to 6 slides below, data is on slides 3-5), which should be a decent source.

I'd like to see if Consumer Reports has done anything too.

One thing I also found (and not surprisingly) is that a lot of the studies and articles are run by tire companies, and they essentially say you're going to die in a fire if you dont have snow tires even if you're in an M-1 Abrams tank (well, not really, but you get the picture.



http://www.popularmechanics.com/car...testing-showdown-winter-vs-all-season#slide-2

 

[riverc0il]

We can go back and forth on this forever. But I think we can all agree, getting back to the original point of the thread, that unless you have a specific need for AWD, it is not a necessity for most folks... FWD with snows should suffice for 99% of drivers. I'd go AWD with snows if I had a steep driveway or if I lived on a road that generally wasn't plowed well or often.

No one said FWD with snows is better than AWD with snows. Clearly the latter is the best. But it is also over kill for most folks. FWD with snows definitely doesn't do as good of a job getting a car moving as AWD with snows but it does amazingly better than FWD without snows.

AWD being necessarily really comes down to individual circumstances of your starting and ending location, not really the driving you do in between. It can certainly a little but the real benefit to AWD is getting you going out of a deep snow situation.

 

[hammer]

Upwards of a grand? You are shopping for tires at the wrong places. Checkout http://www.treadepot.com and get them mounted and balanced for free at your local vocational school. Even my dealer does it for only $19 per tire.

Unfortunately, not all of us have an older car that we can easily get steel wheels for...for a newer car, the choice is wheels + tires + TPMS which can easily add up to a grand or remount twice/year which puts wear and tear on tires and wheels.

Could I run without TPMS and save a few bucks? Guess I could...but I know seeing the warning light and having to clear the message for months would be a pain. Depends on the individual.

There are also vehicles that depend on TPMS as a part of the overall safety systems

And there's no way I'm going to trust my 2-3 YO car to a local vocational school...even for something as simple as a tire/wheel install.

If I had a FWD older car, this would be a no-brainer...but with a new TPMS-equipped AWD car the choice of running good all-seasons vs going with winter and summer tires gets a little less certain. I know I would get better traction with winter tires...but is the increased performance worth the additional cost/hassle or can I do OK as long as I adjust my driving habits accordingly.

 

[frapcap]

My corolla has A solitary snow tire on it. The other three are all seasons.
My chances of snow traction have been increased 25%!

 

[BigJay]

We can go back and forth on this forever. But I think we can all agree, getting back to the original point of the thread, that unless you have a specific need for AWD, it is not a necessity for most folks... FWD with snows should suffice for 99% of drivers. I'd go AWD with snows if I had a steep driveway or if I lived on a road that generally wasn't plowed well or often.

No one said FWD with snows is better than AWD with snows. Clearly the latter is the best. But it is also over kill for most folks. FWD with snows definitely doesn't do as good of a job getting a car moving as AWD with snows but it does amazingly better than FWD without snows.

AWD being necessarily really comes down to individual circumstances of your starting and ending location, not really the driving you do in between. It can certainly a little but the real benefit to AWD is getting you going out of a deep snow situation.

Exactly... and for those who don't have snow tires: Stay south... or get out of the way and stop driving at 20mph when it snows only an inch! :razz:

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

Exactly... and for those who don't have snow tires: Stay south... or get out of the way and stop driving at 20mph when it snows only an inch! :razz:

Hahaha! AWD, all seasons and 5mph faster then the posted speed limit (highway of course) for me. :beer:

 

[mlctvt]

We have a 2007 Outback that we drive to VT most every weekend in the winter and see a dramattic difference between all seasons and snow tires. Snow tires go on in early December and stay on through mud season in the spring.

+1, Same with our 2 Subarus as well as our Honda Element.

All Season tires are great at nothing but just Ok in snow and just Ok in dry/hot conditions. They're a compromise tire.
I'd rather have the best tool for the job.
We run Summer performance tires and Snow tires. Have multiple sets of rims for each so the switch over take just a few minutes. The only downside is I had to get a storage rack for the extra 20 wheels/tires that are in my garage! (We also have 3 different sets of rims tires for the Miata, multiple sets of racing tires)

 

[HowieT2]

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/winter-traction-test-what-price-traction

pretty much as the consensus here. AWD/4wd best for getting going and going up hills. snow tires better for stopping and maintaining control at speed.

 

[BenedictGomez]

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/winter-traction-test-what-price-traction

pretty much as the consensus here. AWD/4wd best for getting going and going up hills. snow tires better for stopping and maintaining control at speed.

Another good study (I missed that one). And their findings in the below would be enough to clinch 4WD over 2WD for me in ski country. Mountains arent flat. Frankly, the only real advantage 2WD+snows had is in breaking, and it wasnt that substantial, not to mention, proper driving further mitigates that slight advantage (i.e. Dont tailgate, and WTH is going to be driving like a bat out of hell at 120mph on snowy roads anyway?) This choice is obvious.

Both four-wheel-drivers, even shod with stock all-season tires, were able to ascend the 30-percent grade, whereas the 2wd cars could only conquer the 10- and 15-percent grades.

As our braking tests would later confirm, winter tires can improve straight-line grip by as much as a third relative to all-season tires. But four-wheel drive doubles the grip of a stock two-wheel-drive car when accelerating or climbing a grade.

EDIT: And here's another thing that seems obvious that none of us considered. What about after the snow when the roads are cleared or there is a thaw? This is the only study that considered that, and once the roads are cleared, the all-season tires bested the snow tires in stopping and control. This is a huge consideration we havent even mentioned, given how great they clear roads up in Vermont, New Hampshire, etc...... Frankly, in Vermont the highways and roads are "clear" for more of the winter than they are snow covered.

 

[mlctvt]

Anyone who thinks 2wd with snows is better than any 4x4 or awd regardless of tires is completely wrong.

Snow tires are not the end all be all, a good driver is, period.

You're wrong.
Several years ago one of the major car mags either Car&Driver or Road and Track ran a test of several makes of cars that were offered in both AWD and 2wd.
They put snow tires on the 2wd cars and left the OEM all season tires on the AWD cars. Then they ran tests in dry, wet, snow and Ice.
Every single 2WD car with snow tire outperformed the AWD version with all season tires in snow and ice every case.

Tires are much better than AWD
I'll see if I cna locate the test article

Edit sorry - I see HowieT2 referenced this article

 

[Glenn]

I read this entire thread in 2wd, then in AWD, then in 4wd...then in 4wd with a locked transfer case...with open diffs. I then read it with Summer tires, all seasons, snows and studded snows.

I can't beleive it's 9 pages.