Is 4WD/AWD a neccesity on your ski vehicle?

[x10003q]

Snow tires are not the end all be all, a good driver is, period.

Exactly

I have owned or rented a house in ski country (Mt Snow, Stratton area, Gore, Killington) for 30 years. I had a Dodge 4x4 pickup until 1989 when I swiched to Audi. I have only used all season tires since then. I have never been stuck. There have been about 5 times when I would have liked to have snow tires on the Audi in the last 22 years. Driver judgement is the most important factor in the snows vs awd debate. If I lived farther north I would consider snow tires. Snow tires are better, but I found that 99% of the time (for me) they are not needed. There have been a few times that I did not venture out into storms because I did not have snows, but my having snows does not help when other drivers have problems.

 

[thinnmann]

Snow tires are better, but I found that 99% of the time (for me) they are not needed. There have been a few times that I did not venture out into storms because I did not have snows, but my having snows does not help when other drivers have problems.

I read an article once that said that in the life of a tire, it has to rely on its most sophisticated highly engineered qualities for only a few minutes or less. However, in those few minutes, or even in the few seconds when that performance was called upon, they might save your life. So I am happy that they are not needed 99% of the time. But in that remaining 1% when they keep the car on the road, make the stop in time, or get me where I am going, then they are worth it.

Also consider that snow tires don't only increase safety for you, the driver, and your passengers; they also increase the safety of every vehicle occupant on the same road you are traveling on, as well as the property surrounding your travel route.

 

[thinnmann]

We have a 2007 Outback that we drive to VT most every weekend in the winter and see a dramattic difference between all seasons and snow tires. Snow tires go on in early December and stay on through mud season in the spring.

On a snow covered surface, they have to make a difference. And yes, FWD with snows trump AWD without them. The reason is the way the tires behave. They are narrower than an all season, so there is more weight on the surface area contacting the snow. This allows them to do two things: 1.) Push through the snow to solid pavement, or 2.) Compact the snow into a configuration that allows the aggressive tread pattern find purchase in the more solid snow. An all season tire in similar situations will ride above the snow, allowing them to slip on acceleration, and skid upon braking. Clearly, the snow-tired FWD vehicle is going to handle much more predictably than the AWD vehicle with all-seasons when the snow falls on the road.

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

On a snow covered surface, they have to make a difference. And yes, FWD with snows trump AWD without them. The reason is the way the tires behave. They are narrower than an all season, so there is more weight on the surface area contacting the snow. This allows them to do two things: 1.) Push through the snow to solid pavement, or 2.) Compact the snow into a configuration that allows the aggressive tread pattern find purchase in the more solid snow. An all season tire in similar situations will ride above the snow, allowing them to slip on acceleration, and skid upon braking. Clearly, the snow-tired FWD vehicle is going to handle much more predictably than the AWD vehicle with all-seasons when the snow falls on the road.

Well I have a FWD vehicle with studed snow tires and a AWD with all seasons, AWD with all seasons out performs FWD with studded snow tires. Not to say the FWD isn't more than capable in most conditions.

 

[bobbutts]

What you guys think about the various computer assist technologies like stability and traction control in snow? Has anyone here had these save or doom them in the real world?

 

[thinnmann]

What you guys think about the various computer assist technologies like stability and traction control in snow? Has anyone here had these save or doom them in the real world?

I think in moving situations, FWD traction control works to improve handling. But when a car gets stuck with wheels spinning it is best to turn traction control off so both drive wheels get the power.

ABS no lockups of rear wheels = definitely prevents tragedy.

 

[AdironRider]

On a snow covered surface, they have to make a difference. And yes, FWD with snows trump AWD without them. The reason is the way the tires behave. They are narrower than an all season, so there is more weight on the surface area contacting the snow. This allows them to do two things: 1.) Push through the snow to solid pavement, or 2.) Compact the snow into a configuration that allows the aggressive tread pattern find purchase in the more solid snow. An all season tire in similar situations will ride above the snow, allowing them to slip on acceleration, and skid upon braking. Clearly, the snow-tired FWD vehicle is going to handle much more predictably than the AWD vehicle with all-seasons when the snow falls on the road.

Wrong, but if you want to justify upwards of a grand for that nice smug feeling, then so be it. FWD with snows does not trump AWD with anything.

Again, its the driver, not some tire that you spent to much money on for a warm feeling inside.

 

[Geoff]

What you guys think about the various computer assist technologies like stability and traction control in snow? Has anyone here had these save or doom them in the real world?

My car starting procedure for winter in my Vermont driveway:
1- Start the car
2- Disable the traction control
3- Put it in gear and back out of my parking spot

I don't like ABS in deep snow, either. It increases stopping distance. I don't care if I have more control when I'm rolling through a high traffic intersection at the bottom of a steep hill because the ABS has kicked in. I wish I had a switch to disable ABS, too. I wouldn't use it often but there are times when it's very useful.

 

[Geoff]

Anyone who thinks 2wd with snows is better than any 4x4 or awd regardless of tires is completely wrong.

Snow tires are not the end all be all, a good driver is, period.

On black ice? Most definitely. ...but not just "snows". It needs to be a modern friction tire like a Blizzak or Nokian.

I don't care how good a driver you are. If you're in traffic and encounter black ice, the cars around you are going to be doing guardrail pinball and you won't be able to avoid them with AWD and stock tires.

 

[bobbutts]

One hole in the fwd + snows argument is that in a skid situation, the awd car is a superior tool to regain control. All bets are off if the driver uses only brake, but often power application can control the skid (think drifting). Bottom line is AWD vs. FWD + Snows is subjective and varies based on equipment and driver way too much to reach any conclusion on in this thread.
We all know that within any class of vehicle snow tires will help, studs will help more, and we also all know that awd/4wd is superior to 2wd.
:smash:

 

[riverc0il]

Yup. I've followed that Impreza thread. Everything you listed in terms of frustration with fuel economy in this class is exactly what we struggle with. The Impreza is just a bit too small for us (it's close). The SportWagen TDI has been on the table. Haven't quite sold her on it.

Its a great car for dogs and outdoors. Fold flat rear seat, tons of room, rails if you want a box up top for even more room, etc. Nice creature comforts as well, not luxury but a step up from most economy cars for sure. I'm averaging about 40mpg combined total. My best tank was just under 44mpg. You pay a little more at the pump and up front but the fuel savings eventually pays dividends, especially if you're a light foot. If the misses enjoys driving, a test drive will sell her. I have a hard time being a light foot even though I bought it partially for the fuel efficiency. No AWD diesel yet, though.

 

[AdironRider]

On black ice? Most definitely. ...but not just "snows". It needs to be a modern friction tire like a Blizzak or Nokian.

I don't care how good a driver you are. If you're in traffic and encounter black ice, the cars around you are going to be doing guardrail pinball and you won't be able to avoid them with AWD and stock tires.

Everyones argument for FWD with snows assumes one has no ability to drive in adverse conditions whatsoever.

As Bob points out, a little bit more throttle in a slide situation and your going to get out of it with AWD, snow tires and fwd and youll just keep sliding along. Brakes are the enemy regardless of powertrain in snow.

A good driver knows this, a shitty one thinks the snow tires will save him. Which one are you?

 

[riverc0il]

The great debate going on in our household is not whether it would be better to get winter tires (it would be), but whether AWD with decent all-seasons is good enough for most situations. I was about ready to pull the trigger but the whole hassle with the TPMS sensors drives the cost up or requires twice-annual remounts, which I still have concerns about doing from a tire and wheel condition standpoint.

I hate analysis paralysis...

If your driving into ski country a lot... snow tires should be a given whether you have AWD or FWD. FWD with snows or AWD without snows is an asinine question for anyone driving in snow a lot. AWD or FWD is the question and snows regardless.

AWD without snows is a great option for metro and suburban commuters who rarely drive in snow and for which snow tires would be mostly overkill with performance and fuel efficiency penalties too outstanding for the few uses the snow tires would get. AWD is enough extra to help on those few big storms that interfere with the commute.

 

[Edd]

What you guys think about the various computer assist technologies like stability and traction control in snow? Has anyone here had these save or doom them in the real world?

My 2002 Legacy w/all seasons had no traction control. I drove in alot of snow and it was competent but I feel like I'm pretty cautious during storms.

My 2010 Forester w/all seasons does have traction control. The first storm I was in I noticed a significant difference in the snow handling; much improved. At the time I attributed this to traction control but I should note the general handling characteristics of these cars is different all around.

There is one place that bothers me driving during storms and that's Crawford Notch heading from Bretton Woods to Bartlett. I've always managed to maintain control but sometimes there's a douche who doesn't know snow is slippery right up my ass while we're heading at a good pitch downhill. If I have to slam on my brakes there is no way he won't hit me.

After reading all of these snow tire threads across the forums I think I'm finally going to pull the trigger next year on a set of snows.

 

[Bumpsis]

I have no experience with AWD vehicles (with excpetion of a couple vacation rentals out west) so I really can't contribute anthing useful to the FWD vs AWD debate.

However, I've gone through many really snowy Buffalo winters driving FWD cars with snow tires (no studs) and addressing the starting title of this thread (Is 4WD/AWD a neccesity..), I can say will 100% certainty that you DO NOT need a 4 WD/AWD for driving in snowy, slippery conditions. I went out to ski in sometimes really nasty conditions and always managed to get to a ski area and back. No getting stuck in unplowed parking lots either. Good set of quality winter threads got me through safely every winter out there.
Living in NE, I always put a set of winters on. Most of the time, it seems almost like I don't need them, but those few times when it snows and it's slippery, I'm really happy I have them on.

One aspect that doesn't seem to be under consideartion in this discussion is the economy of an AWD/4WD vehicle vs FWD. They genearlly cost most more upfront to lease of buy and although I'm far from ceratin about this, but don't the AWD cars crank through more tires than a FWD car?

I recall taking to a Subaru owner a while back who was complaining that having lost one tire (bad flat), he had to replace a whole set. What's the tire wear situation on AWD cars?

Let's face it, winter driving, if we're lucky, is at best, about a 3 month period in NE. The rest of the year, you really don't need an AWD/4WD. The extra weight (differentials, trasfer box) and the wear and tear on the tires may not be worth the money for the performance features that the AWD gives you.

 

[riverc0il]

What you guys think about the various computer assist technologies like stability and traction control in snow? Has anyone here had these save or doom them in the real world?

I have only had traction control and ABS for a few months now, never drove a car with it before. I still find it unnerving that the car automatically takes over control, even if for only a few split seconds. I hope I don't become deconditioned to rely on them. I like having full control of my car even when conditions are bad. I've only once had a fender bender due to not leaving enough space... it was early fall with wet leaves of all things and I wasn't driving defensively due to under estimating the conditions. At least the traction control light goes off when it starts working so I know somethings up and of course ABS is noticeable. I don't trust them yet but I haven't turned the traction control off excepting when it is "appropriate" to do so.

 

[Bumpsis]

I have only had traction control and ABS for a few months now, never drove a car with it before. I still find it unnerving that the car automatically takes over control, even if for only a few split seconds. I hope I don't become deconditioned to rely on them. I like having full control of my car even when conditions are bad. I've only once had a fender bender due to not leaving enough space... it was early fall with wet leaves of all things and I wasn't driving defensively due to under estimating the conditions. At least the traction control light goes off when it starts working so I know somethings up and of course ABS is noticeable. I don't trust them yet but I haven't turned the traction control off excepting when it is "appropriate" to do so.

I think that traction control is a great feature to have. I'm far less concerned about losing control over my car to some automated program. The whole idea of stopping a wheel from spinning and trasferring the engine's power to the wheel can can actually get the car moving is just great. Long time ago, the only way to get traction control was to have a heavy mechanical box full of gears that would do the power transfer. All that usually added some good money to the sticker to have that feature.
Now, a small processor, some sensors and bingo, a mid price car can have a really helpful feature for winter driving.

 

[Geoff]

Everyones argument for FWD with snows assumes one has no ability to drive in adverse conditions whatsoever.

As Bob points out, a little bit more throttle in a slide situation and your going to get out of it with AWD, snow tires and fwd and youll just keep sliding along. Brakes are the enemy regardless of powertrain in snow.

A good driver knows this, a shitty one thinks the snow tires will save him. Which one are you?

I love these "my dick is bigger than yours" rebuttals.

If you hit black ice in traffic, I don't care how well you can drive. Modern friction tires give you a much better coefficient of friction. If you don't have traction, you can't control the car.

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

If your driving into ski country a lot... snow tires should be a given whether you have AWD or FWD. FWD with snows or AWD without snows is an asinine question for anyone driving in snow a lot. AWD or FWD is the question and snows regardless.

AWD without snows is a great option for metro and suburban commuters who rarely drive in snow and for which snow tires would be mostly overkill with performance and fuel efficiency penalties too outstanding for the few uses the snow tires would get. AWD is enough extra to help on those few big storms that interfere with the commute.

Who says? Perhaps I am missing something, but still haven't seen the need for snows on an AWD. Isn't snow snow no matter where you live? I would think somebody who deals with snow more often would need snow tire less as they are more acustom to driving in the snow? Well either way I guess it's a personal preference.

 

[o3jeff]

I love these "my dick is bigger than yours" rebuttals.

If you hit black ice in traffic, I don't care how well you can drive. Modern friction tires give you a much better coefficient of friction. If you don't have traction, you can't control the car.

Like if these guys had all seasons and took another foot to stop, where would they be?