Is 4WD/AWD a neccesity on your ski vehicle?

[gmcunni]

I read this entire thread in 2wd, then in AWD, then in 4wd...then in 4wd with a locked transfer case...with open diffs. I then read it with Summer tires, all seasons, snows and studded snows.

I can't beleive it's 9 pages.

i'm sure if you put chains on and re-read you'll have a totally different perspective.

 

[thinnmann]

Unfortunately, not all of us have an older car that we can easily get steel wheels for...for a newer car, the choice is wheels + tires + TPMS which can easily add up to a grand or remount twice/year which puts wear and tear on tires and wheels.

Could I run without TPMS and save a few bucks? Guess I could...but I know seeing the warning light and having to clear the message for months would be a pain. Depends on the individual.

There are also vehicles that depend on TPMS as a part of the overall safety systems

And there's no way I'm going to trust my 2-3 YO car to a local vocational school...even for something as simple as a tire/wheel install.

If I had a FWD older car, this would be a no-brainer...but with a new TPMS-equipped AWD car the choice of running good all-seasons vs going with winter and summer tires gets a little less certain. I know I would get better traction with winter tires...but is the increased performance worth the additional cost/hassle or can I do OK as long as I adjust my driving habits accordingly.

Getting winter tires is not an additional cost, because then both sets last longer. In the long run, the tire cost is a wash, as long as you don't splurge on the extra rims.

The increase in performance is worth it because it can save the entire vehicle from more costly crash damage.

 

[mlctvt]

exactly, It blows my mind that people drop $20K, $30K, even $40K plus but they won't spend an extra 500-1K for a proper extra set of rims/tires.
Many of these same people think nothing of spending 1k-2K extra for leather seats, GPS etc.
I guess tires/wheels aren't exciting accessories to most.

I've got a friend that has nice late model BMW sedan and he bitches that it isn't very good in snow. When I looked at his tires I noticed they were running performance summer tires since that is what the car came with. I blame some of this on the dealers/manufacturers for not educating the consumer. Many performance models come with summer only tires and some people are clueless when it comes to cars.

 

[BenedictGomez]

You're wrong.
Several years ago one of the major car mags either Car&Driver or Road and Track ran a test of several makes of cars that were offered in both AWD and 2wd.
They put snow tires on the 2wd cars and left the OEM all season tires on the AWD cars. Then they ran tests in dry, wet, snow and Ice.
Every single 2WD car with snow tire outperformed the AWD version with all season tires in snow and ice every case.

Someone jumped into the thread on the last page and hasnt been reading. Several studies have already been referenced my myself and another poster that suggested exactly the opposite of what you just posted above.

To sum it up, the only advantage 2WD+snows had over 4WD+all-seasons was in breaking and cornering/handling, but they were both pretty modest advantages. In all the other testing categories, 4WD+all-seasons outperformed 2WD+snows. This should be intuitively obvious, as drive power applications like climbing ability, acceleration, getting unstuck from 0mph, etc.... will always be dominated by AWD.

Not to mention, once the snow melted and the roads were cleared, even 2WD+all-seasons outperformed 2WD+snows!

 

[x10003q]

Getting winter tires is not an additional cost, because then both sets last longer. In the long run, the tire cost is a wash, as long as you don't splurge on the extra rims.

The increase in performance is worth it because it can save the entire vehicle from more costly crash damage.

Unless you have access to tire changing mounting and balancing equipment getting winter tires is an additional cost. I have snows on my FWD. It is $100 each time I swap. As to the tires lasting longer - tires dry out and get hard with age so there might be tread left on the tire, but you need to replace them anyway. Also, the snows wear out faster because of the softer compound and winters like this one (so far).

I am headed up to VT shortly. As usual there is no need for snow tires on my AWD.

 

[BenedictGomez]

I am headed up to VT shortly. As usual there is no need for snows on my AWD.

This is the one thing that I've learned from the study the other poster linked. And it's obvious, yet nobody thinks about it (including me).

Yeah, snow tires 100% help in snow, there's no doubt about it. But what about the 95% of the time there's no snow on the road! Or the 24 hours after the storm when the road's department has you back to blacktop. Once the roads are cleared and dry (or you get the January thaw), the cars with all-seasons performed better than the cars with snow tires. I'd still want snow tires on a 2WD if I lived in snow country, but that really gives you pause for thought.

 

[gmcunni]

Unless you have access to tire changing mounting and balancing equipment getting winter tires is an additional cost. I have snows on my FWD. It is $100 each time I swap.

it depends on your vehicle but i had snows on an inexpensive set of steel rims. i'd just jack up the car and swap the wheels out myself every winter/spring. took about 15 minutes. the steel rims were relatively cheap when i bought them as part of the "winter package" from tirerack.com.

my gmc SUV is different, there does not appear to be a cheap rim alternative.

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

it depends on your vehicle but i had snows on an inexpensive set of steel rims. i'd just jack up the car and swap the wheels out myself every winter/spring. took about 15 minutes. the steel rims were relatively cheap when i bought them as part of the "winter package" from tirerack.com.

my gmc SUV is different, there does not appear to be a cheap rim alternative.

In this electronic age don't many newer cars have to have other things adjusted on them when different types of tires put on?

 

[gmcunni]

In this electronic age don't many newer cars have to have other things adjusted on them when different types of tires put on?

i don't know, probably tho.

i had a 2000 saab. summer tires were low profile 16 inch and my snows were high sidewall 15 inch. there was a setting (i didn't bother with it) for the speedo to adjust rim size for speed/mileage accuracy. cars today have sensors for air pressure and such. but when i put the crappy steel rim spare on the SUV it works ok. i did have a problem once with the air pressure sensor. the previous rotation didn't reset them so it said my front tire was low when it was my rear. so i guess even with the electronic monitoring there is a opportunity for error.

 

[mlctvt]

Someone jumped into the thread on the last page and hasnt been reading. Several studies have already been referenced my myself and another poster that suggested exactly the opposite of what you just posted above.

To sum it up, the only advantage 2WD+snows had over 4WD+all-seasons was in breaking and cornering/handling, but they were both pretty modest advantages. In all the other testing categories, 4WD+all-seasons outperformed 2WD+snows. This should be intuitively obvious, as drive power applications like climbing ability, acceleration, getting unstuck from 0mph, etc.... will always be dominated by AWD.

Not to mention, once the snow melted and the roads were cleared, even 2WD+all-seasons outperformed 2WD+snows!

Did you read the article from above? Here's the summary

So What's the Bottom Line?
Four-wheel drive helps get cars going. When it comes time to brake or change direction on low-traction surfaces, the extra mass of the driveline becomes more of a detriment. Folks who live in hilly places that get snow may need the climbing capability of four-wheel drive. If it snows a lot in those hilly places, they should probably invest in winter tires, too. Even flat-landers who happen to have steep driveways may wish to consider a four-wheel-driver.

Almost everyone else will most likely be better served by using winter tires. Acceleration takes longer, but in an emergency, the handling behavior and improved lateral grip of two-wheel drive and winter tires -- in the slippery stuff -- are the safer bets.

Winter tires boosted the rwd Benz's acceleration times more than they did the fwd Audi's, but in almost every other test, the inherently front-heavy Audis derived more benefit from the winter rubber than did the more evenly balanced Benzes. This finding certainly suggests that front-drive cars benefit from winter tires as much or more than rear-drivers do.

And finally, unless snow or ice covers your roads many times in a winter, the snow benefits of winter tires may not outweigh their drawbacks on dry pavement.

There, Nevin. And don't ask which came first, the chicken or the egg.

 

[hammer]

my gmc SUV is different, there does not appear to be a cheap rim alternative.

So did you get winter tires on it anyway?

 

[BigJay]

This is the one thing that I've learned from the study the other poster linked. And it's obvious, yet nobody thinks about it (including me).

Yeah, snow tires 100% help in snow, there's no doubt about it. But what about the 95% of the time there's no snow on the road! Or the 24 hours after the storm when the road's department has you back to blacktop. Once the roads are cleared and dry (or you get the January thaw), the cars with all-seasons performed better than the cars with snow tires. I'd still want snow tires on a 2WD if I lived in snow country, but that really gives you pause for thought.

Wrong again. All-season tires are made for deperature above 50F... as soon as temps drop, all-season get to firm and won't grip as much:
http://www.discounttiredirect.com/direct/brochure/winter/tmpSafetyBelow45.jsp

What about your safety and the safety of others? I'd sue for negligence if someone would run into my family because they can justify paying 40k$ for an SUV but can't be smart enough to buy the right set of tires for their application!

Again, we see a lot of folks with plates from the south who can't get up the hill... and we see a lot of SUVs, who think AWD makes them ,god rolled over in the ditch on both sides of the 242...

I think we have a much tougher weather up here in Qc... and yet, the cars sold are mostly compact cars (Mazda, Honda, Toyota, Volks, Hyunday and Kia)... all FWD... but everyone drives with snow tires... They're mandatory for 2 years now... but that doesn't change... i don't know anyone who doesn't have winter tires...

But again, please, stay off the road if it snows... it sucks being stuck behind a slow moving car in an inch of snow!

 

[gmcunni]

So did you get winter tires on it anyway?

no, i got a jeep wrangler as MY car

the suv needs new rubber. i plan to look for a good all season tire with a slant towards good snow traction.

 

[o3jeff]

no, i got a jeep wrangler as MY car

the suv needs new rubber. i plan to look for a good all season tire with a slant towards good snow traction.

Didn't you read this thread, you need both.

 

[AdironRider]

In this electronic age don't many newer cars have to have other things adjusted on them when different types of tires put on?

Unfortunately not. As of 2007 every vehicle in the USA has to have TPMS. Unfortunately, most of these sensors are very simple at best, and are usually programmed for the specs for the factory stock tires.

I know I get the joy of a flashing TPMS light every time I drive cause I stepped up to 10 plys and run about 20 psi higher than the stock 4 ply all season tires my truck came with. Ive spent hours trying to figure out a way to bypass the system, but thanks to the feds, on almost any vehicle there is little you can do.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Did you read the article from above? Here's the summary

I prefer to focus on the actual data in studies than the summary, because you never know what their bias is (i.e. does the car magazine receive $$ in advertising dollars from tire companies).

And the raw data in the studies suggests that the 4WD with all-seasons has major advantages in the categories tested in which the 4WD "won" (hill climbing, acceleration, not getting stuck), but the 2WD with snow tires only had modest advantages in the categories tested in which the 2WD "won" (braking, curve handling).

I'd rather have the 4WD vehicle with major advantages and slight disadvantageous than the 2WD vehicle with modest advantageous and major disadvantages.

That's not to mention that even in the summary it noted that 4WD is better in hilly or mountainous areas, and given this discussion is about ski country (i.e. not flat areas) one would think that if you focused on the summary that finding should take precedence.

Not to mention, in winter, when the roads are dry and/or recovered, all-seasons outperformed snow tires in the study regardless of whether you're talking about a 4WD or a 2WD vehicle.

But again, please, stay off the road if it snows... it sucks being stuck behind a slow moving car in an inch of snow!

You seem very upset. I'm thinking you're one of the people I was hypothesizing in my first post in this thread. Unlike you, I'm not "all emotional" over this issue and prefer to analyze the facts and actual data to make my determination.

I've tried to do my best to look at that in this thread from the studies I (and others) have posted, and to that end, it seems pretty clear that 4WD with all-seasons bests 2WD with Snow tires (although 4WD with snow tires was head and shoulders the best performer).

To that end, a pro tip?

You might not want to use "Discount Tire Direct" for your "factual" information regarding tire performance. Lol. I'd sooner use an unblinded study from Merck or Pfizer for taking advice on drug studies!

 

[Bacon]

"Winter tires boosted the rwd Benz's acceleration times more than they did the fwd Audi's, but in almost every other test, the inherently front-heavy Audis derived more benefit from the winter rubber than did the more evenly balanced Benzes. This finding certainly suggests that front-drive cars benefit from winter tires as much or more than rear-drivers do."

What front wheel drive Audi's? Curious if it was the 4's or 6's?

 

[SKIQUATTRO]

i didnt put tpms on my 17" winter rims/tires...i'm not bothered by the tire light on the dash....i can check the pressure old school...with a guage...

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

Wrong again. All-season tires are made for deperature above 50F... as soon as temps drop, all-season get to firm and won't grip as much:
http://www.discounttiredirect.com/direct/brochure/winter/tmpSafetyBelow45.jsp

What about your safety and the safety of others? I'd sue for negligence if someone would run into my family because they can justify paying 40k$ for an SUV but can't be smart enough to buy the right set of tires for their application!

Again, we see a lot of folks with plates from the south who can't get up the hill... and we see a lot of SUVs, who think AWD makes them ,god rolled over in the ditch on both sides of the 242...

I think we have a much tougher weather up here in Qc... and yet, the cars sold are mostly compact cars (Mazda, Honda, Toyota, Volks, Hyunday and Kia)... all FWD... but everyone drives with snow tires... They're mandatory for 2 years now... but that doesn't change... i don't know anyone who doesn't have winter tires...

But again, please, stay off the road if it snows... it sucks being stuck behind a slow moving car in an inch of snow!

So when you're talking winter tires, your talking winter tires without studs or with?

 

[BenedictGomez]

So when you're talking winter tires, your talking winter tires without studs or with?

Brian, DONT!!!!!