Pico Will Not Operate 7 Days A Week

[JimG.]

Its ASC's fault and now Powdr/SPLands fault...ASC's for never promoting PICO and now Powdr/SPLand for TOTALLY ABANDONING Pico without ever giving it a shot....

I for one..know that the old "tele tuesdays" brought a decent crowd to Pico...where does that go??? What about all the high school programs????

Totally lame....Pico IS a great mountain........its the MANAGEMENT and MARKETING THAT SUCK......

M

Are you always so negative?

Dog, they've owned the place barely 2 months. They haven't even had a winter of operation yet. You have no idea what the decisions now might lead to in the future, and you don't know their whole plan.

Shhhhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh!

 

[SkiDog]

You're standing there...there are 2 parallel metal rails that disappear into the horizon with wooden ties holding them together. You feel vibrations on those tracks. Then there's a light on the horizon, and the high pitched sqeal of a whistle coming closer...

Some folks get off the track and some folks stand there and get hit.

After all the years of neglect, these people need more warning? Billboards? Skywriting?

Give me a break. And you must think POWDR is the white knight come to save you, or a genie to make all your wishes come true. Let's get real.

We're getting warmed up now. Go SkiDog!!

Well all I can say Jim...is I now HOPE it happend to Hunter...youll be singing a MUCH different tune then....

Those condos were and are still worth something...Pico is not an NELSAP....its a VIABLE mtn....with the CORRECT management.....but hey....POWDR shouldnt even give it a chance apparently...

Oh and if you didnt know...property values fluctuate......they ALWAYS do.....ups and downs...these people were likely holding out for a new management co to come in and MAYBE make some changes for the better...they got BONED and now are totally screwed...there was NO WARNING.....no matter what you may think...

Yeah also...how do you think MY property values up at Killington are now with POWDRS awesome management???? LOWER AND LOWER EVERYDAY...should I have heard that train coming too???

Cmon man...get real....THINK ABOUT HOW YOU'D FEEL......that mtn CAN make money...just like KILLINGTON USED to make money....and still can.

M

 

[SkiDog]

Are you always so negative?

Dog, they've owned the place barely 2 months. They haven't even had a winter of operation yet. You have no idea what the decisions now might lead to in the future, and you don't know their whole plan.

Shhhhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh!

DUDE and in those short 2 months what have they done...NOTHING BUT TAKE THINGS AWAY...HOW CAN I BE ANYTHING BUT NEGATIVE..man I own friggin property there...EVER think of that??? What theyve done in the short time they've already had has dropped my property values EXPONENTIALLY.... and now they are talking about limiting services at lodges mid week....??? There hasnt been one piece of good news yet...and im supposed to "give them a chance"? How WOULD YOU FEEL??? (pissed is not a valid answer)

There has to be some GIVE with the TAKE.....

One day the Slutzky's will be gone and you'll be singing a different tune....

M

 

[SkiDog]

Are you always so negative?

Dog, they've owned the place barely 2 months. They haven't even had a winter of operation yet. You have no idea what the decisions now might lead to in the future, and you don't know their whole plan.

Shhhhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh!

How would you feel if hunter took away all the "locals" discounts and incentives???

M

 

[JimG.]

Well all I can say Jim...is I now HOPE it happend to Hunter...youll be singing a MUCH different tune then....

Those condos were and are still worth something...Pico is not an NELSAP....its a VIABLE mtn....with the CORRECT management.....but hey....POWDR shouldnt even give it a chance apparently...

Oh and if you didnt know...property values fluctuate......they ALWAYS do.....ups and downs...these people were likely holding out for a new management co to come in and MAYBE make some changes for the better...they got BONED and now are totally screwed...there was NO WARNING.....no matter what you may think...

Yeah also...how do you think MY property values up at Killington are now with POWDRS awesome management???? LOWER AND LOWER EVERYDAY...should I have heard that train coming too???

Cmon man...get real....THINK ABOUT HOW YOU'D FEEL......that mtn CAN make money...just like KILLINGTON USED to make money....and still can.

M

I apologize...I keep forgetting you own at K and this issue is of real substance to you. I'm just discussing this and I'm fascinated by how it will play out. You're right, I have no money in play, I don't own at Hunter, and I ski weekends so mid week closings mean nothing to me. So it's easy for me to talk.

Keeping the discussion alive and stirring things up might get someone of influence interested. There are eyes here that do not post. These threads are watched and your heartfelt posts might make a difference.

Would you sound as obviously pissed if you sat down to write a letter to POWDR and didn't have a foil to be angry at?

 

[SkiDog]

I apologize...I keep forgetting you own at K and this issue is of real substance to you. I'm just discussing this and I'm fascinated by how it will play out. You're right, I have no money in play, I don't own at Hunter, and I ski weekends so mid week closings mean nothing to me. So it's easy for me to talk.

Keeping the discussion alive and stirring things up might get someone of influence interested. There are eyes here that do not post. These threads are watched and your heartfelt posts might make a difference.

Would you sound as obviously pissed if you sat down to write a letter to POWDR and didn't have a foil to be angry at?

A letter to POWDR would be a waste of my time and ink......it would get shuffled aside with all the others...they OBVIOUSLY dont care about the "core" customer...or locals for that matter...and it stinks...aside from literally going up there to every ski swap and standing in front of Killington with signs I dont think anything will change whats happening...

I DO appreciate your Rabble Rousing though...... ;-) keeps my day semi exciting..

M

 

[JimG.]

I DO appreciate your Rabble Rousing though...... ;-) keeps my day semi exciting..

M

Hey, I resemble that remark!

 

[andyzee]

Andy, isn't the "spend money to make money" scenario what got ASC into trouble? They never made enough money.

Here's a thought...if POWDR did that and went bankrupt too, would anyone step up to save Killington?

Jim, you ignorant slut! (sorry been dying to use that line) Yes, borrowing is what got ASC in trouble. But was it borrowing to improve the mountain, or borrowing to pay off losses from other operations that they never should have been in? Not sure what is fact and what is fiction, but the common belief is that Killlington was always a money maker for them. The only issue is that money was siphoned off to other operations and Killington and even more so Pico were neglected. I believe to once again get Killlinton to where it was in terms of profitability, money needs to be spent and needs to be spent now in order to improve operations and make the mountain more desireable to the consumer. There is just far too much competition in the area. I myself love Killington, but with what I'm seeing, I may give it one more year and if in that time I don't see some improvements I moving on. Plenty of others are feeling the same.

I love Sugarbush(hey Win ) the only thing that has kept me from going there is the drive. Guess what, the drive due to poor operations, is suddenly not looking bad. Will most definetly be checking out Whiteface/Gore this year, same distance for me as K. . Going elsewhere may cost me more, but it's not only about the expense, it's also about the product. Bottom line, I'm not the only one feeling this way, others will be moving on as well if they see a shortened season, less choices and higher prices. Why put up with it if there is better down the road? Powdr is giving themselves X number of years to invest and improve, but will the public do the same? Which will be more expensive, putting in the investment now, or the potential loss over the years?

 

[Vinny]

Are you always so negative?

Dog, they've owned the place barely 2 months. They haven't even had a winter of operation yet. You have no idea what the decisions now might lead to in the future, and you don't know their whole plan.

Shhhhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh!

I think Dog has a point. You don't need a year of operations to at least have a feel of how a company is going to handle a new acquistion. Heck, companies do dog and pony shows for venture caps where your whole pitch is just a few hours long. The way you come out of the box means a lot IMO, and PWDR is just blowing it so far.

Compare the vibe of Killington/Pico to Mt. Snow right now, and tell me who you think is doing a better job of promotion so far. Also, who appears to be more vested into improving their operations and customer service? What marketing value do you think each has derived to date?

Closing Pico for two days a week to improve cash flow this early in the game? That's a heck of a lot of advertising dollars they just tossed in the basket, and it doesn't give me a great feeling about their willingness to target better profitability via a long term improved product. It's too early in the game granted, but I don't like the way this one smells. At this very early point, I think, long term, it's going to be a bust.

 

[threecy]

It's not SP/Powdr's fault that people bought/own condos in the Killington/Pico area - it's a risk the buyer takes. How do you think the condo/house owners at Haystack, Tenney, and Timber Ridge feel?

SP/Powdr could have very easily shut down Pico except for weekends and holidays, jacked up the day price at K-Mart to $85 and the entry level season pass to $1000, and not put a dime back into each mountain - and still made a profit. They didn't. They put an INITIAL investment of 3.5 million into the area and get tarred and feathered, while Peak puts in 2.5 million into Mt. Snow (Haystack CLOSED) and gets praised.

So much whining. Everyone here had an opportunity to buy Killington and run it the 'right' way. Only SP/Powdr were able to put up an ample amount of money to do so. At the end of the day, they own the area/rights. Stop complaining and either go ski or go ski elsewhere. They're there to run a business, not a charity.

 

[andyzee]

It's not SP/Powdr's fault that people bought/own condos in the Killington/Pico area - it's a risk the buyer takes. How do you think the condo/house owners at Haystack, Tenney, and Timber Ridge feel?

SP/Powdr could have very easily shut down Pico except for weekends and holidays, jacked up the day price at K-Mart to $85 and the entry level season pass to $1000, and not put a dime back into each mountain - and still made a profit. They didn't. They put an INITIAL investment of 3.5 million into the area and get tarred and feathered, while Peak puts in 2.5 million into Mt. Snow (Haystack CLOSED) and gets praised.

So much whining. Everyone here had an opportunity to buy Killington and run it the 'right' way. Only SP/Powdr were able to put up an ample amount of money to do so. At the end of the day, they own the area/rights. Stop complaining and either go ski or go ski elsewhere. They're there to run a business, not a charity.

Bet they run it into the ground :lol:

 

[MadPadraic]

It's not SP/Powdr's fault that people bought/own condos in the Killington/Pico area - it's a risk the buyer takes. How do you think the condo/house owners at Haystack, Tenney, and Timber Ridge feel?

SP/Powdr could have very easily shut down Pico except for weekends and holidays, jacked up the day price at K-Mart to $85 and the entry level season pass to $1000, and not put a dime back into each mountain - and still made a profit. They didn't. They put an INITIAL investment of 3.5 million into the area and get tarred and feathered, while Peak puts in 2.5 million into Mt. Snow (Haystack CLOSED) and gets praised.

So much whining. Everyone here had an opportunity to buy Killington and run it the 'right' way. Only SP/Powdr were able to put up an ample amount of money to do so. At the end of the day, they own the area/rights. Stop complaining and either go ski or go ski elsewhere. They're there to run a business, not a charity.

And they are free to run it poorly, just as we are free to complain about it. I don't recall being approached by ASC or any investment bank and being asked if I wanted to purchase Killington (if so, I would have bid at least $425.37), so not everyone here had the opportunity. If we stop complaining, then we are reduced to endless "who are your 5 favorite lift operators" polls. I'll take the complaining.

All this being said, I wasn't going to ski Pico mid week anyway, good for them.

 

[MadPadraic]

As in my above post, you need to spend money in order to make money. If you can't afford to market a superior product in a highly competitive region, perhaps you shouldn't have spent 80 million.

Heh,
According to the mentality of some, NE ski can only be competitive if they open exactly 3 times a season on man made hard pack. Apparently there simply is no demand for skiing in the northeast, and what there is is highly inelastic.

Meanwhile I dream of a summer trip to New Zealand.

 

[Greg]

They put an INITIAL investment of 3.5 million into the area and get tarred and feathered, while Peak puts in 2.5 million into Mt. Snow (Haystack CLOSED) and gets praised.

This is not the whole story. Peak is investing $2.5M into snowmaking improvements at Mount Snow. That's in addition to $2M in base area improvements. So it's really $4.5M for Mount Snow alone. Let's also remember they're also investing another $2.5M in snowmaking at Attitash. So Powdr is investing $3.5M into both K and Pico, while Peaks has doubled that investment for Mount Snow and Attitash; two significantly smaller areas in terms of terrain, mind you. Haystack was closed long before all this so I'm not sure how that relates.

So much whining. Everyone here had an opportunity to buy Killington and run it the 'right' way. Only SP/Powdr were able to put up an ample amount of money to do so. At the end of the day, they own the area/rights. Stop complaining and either go ski or go ski elsewhere. They're there to run a business, not a charity.

My biggest complaint is Powdr has not done a good job on the PR front, especially compared to Peak who has totally owned them. It should be interesting to see what Boyne does. They get the benefit from watching what these other two companies did with their former ASC resorts and the reactions to it. Peak and Powdr are taking two different approaches. It will be interesting to see which comes out ahead in the long run. Peak's announcements get people excited, while Powdr seems to just piss more people off. I still think they're just getting all the housecleaning out of the way now and the good news should start coming. The only thing anyone can hope for is underpromise/overdeliver.

 

[threecy]

It's not difficult to figure how much money you will make if your closed ... it's a poor corporate decision. Should supermarkets close on Tuesdays because they don't make a lot of money that day? If your not open your out of mind with no potential for future customers. If I am going to make a decision on a pass, I think I will go with the ski area that's open 7 days a week. Sounds like Powr bought an expensive car and now can't afford the gas or insurance to put it on the road.

Certainly, but in this case Killington is a super market and Pico is more of a ma and pa store. Pico is not what it once was, and probably never will be unless its connected to KMart. For Monday-Friday workers, being closed Tues-Wed non-holiday doesn't make much of a difference at all - especially when the target market is hours away. If it were Wachusett closing Tues-Wed, we'd have a big difference.

 

[bigbog]

..........All this being said, I wasn't going to ski Pico mid week anyway, good for them.

Exactly, it's a simple solution....Pico is a weekend-alternative to the larger Kmart, not a weekday mountain...determined by the numbers. I think most mountains in the NE have a day where they're in the red...and I think we all agree that they have to make some tough decisions....at least for a while. The mountains aren't going Anywhere;-)...they'll always be there....

 

[threecy]

One thing that's interesting here is that no one has suggested the skiers who WANT to ski Pico Tues-Wed get together and show Pico the money - make a commitment to them that there is sufficient interest and that if they reverse the decision, they will buy passes.

 

[Vinny]

It's not SP/Powdr's fault that people bought/own condos in the Killington/Pico area - it's a risk the buyer takes. How do you think the condo/house owners at Haystack, Tenney, and Timber Ridge feel?

SP/Powdr could have very easily shut down Pico except for weekends and holidays, jacked up the day price at K-Mart to $85 and the entry level season pass to $1000, and not put a dime back into each mountain - and still made a profit. They didn't. They put an INITIAL investment of 3.5 million into the area and get tarred and feathered, while Peak puts in 2.5 million into Mt. Snow (Haystack CLOSED) and gets praised.

So much whining. Everyone here had an opportunity to buy Killington and run it the 'right' way. Only SP/Powdr were able to put up an ample amount of money to do so. At the end of the day, they own the area/rights. Stop complaining and either go ski or go ski elsewhere. They're there to run a business, not a charity.

Agree and disagree.

I totally agree with the real estate risk when buying a ski home. Anyone who buys an east coast ski property as an investment or even hoping to break even upon resale is making a tremendously risky decision and shouldn't be surprised when markets change. Actually, most ski/vacation homes fall into this category. When they go down, they often decline at a much more rapid pace than standard home simply because there are far fewer potential buyers than standard residences. Ski/vacation home decisions should be based primarily on utility. If you feel you'll get enough use compared to what you paid, then it's a wise decision. If the value goes up great, if not, it still can be considered a worthwhile purchase. Having said all that, we do own property at Snow knowing that as a resale we may very well lose $$.

I disagree with the selected Pico/Killington comparison for reasons that Greg and others spelled out earlier. When comparing investment plans on a size basis it's not close. And I also don't see what Haystack has to do with the comparison since it was long gone before the deal.

Also, 95% of what I've been reading has been debate, not "whining". If you don't agree, fine. The, "they're there to run a business, not a charity" comment is overly simplistic. Who ever said they have to run a charity? Business decisions are based on spending as well as saving money. All I and some others are saying is that their business decisions look pretty poor to date. Understanding that crystal balls are very often wrong, I'm still betting they fail over the long term.

 

[Greg]

When comparing investment plans on a size basis it's not close.

Agreed. Based on skiable terrain, Powdr would have to be investing $10-$12M to be comparable to Peak's $7M.

 

[JimG.]

Jim, you ignorant slut! (sorry been dying to use that line) Yes, borrowing is what got ASC in trouble. But was it borrowing to improve the mountain, or borrowing to pay off losses from other operations that they never should have been in? Not sure what is fact and what is fiction, but the common belief is that Killlington was always a money maker for them. The only issue is that money was siphoned off to other operations and Killington and even more so Pico were neglected. I believe to once again get Killlinton to where it was in terms of profitability, money needs to be spent and needs to be spent now in order to improve operations and make the mountain more desireable to the consumer. There is just far too much competition in the area. I myself love Killington, but with what I'm seeing, I may give it one more year and if in that time I don't see some improvements I moving on. Plenty of others are feeling the same.

I love Sugarbush(hey Win ) the only thing that has kept me from going there is the drive. Guess what, the drive due to poor operations, is suddenly not looking bad. Will most definetly be checking out Whiteface/Gore this year, same distance for me as K. . Going elsewhere may cost me more, but it's not only about the expense, it's also about the product. Bottom line, I'm not the only one feeling this way, others will be moving on as well if they see a shortened season, less choices and higher prices. Why put up with it if there is better down the road? Powdr is giving themselves X number of years to invest and improve, but will the public do the same? Which will be more expensive, putting in the investment now, or the potential loss over the years?

Andy, you're pretty rational. I take it back...everyone who is bitching about what is going on is fairly rational. Don't think I don't understand the issues. I do completely. All I'm doing is playing the part of the new owner like one or 2 other brave souls are doing. I hope POWDR is watching...there is priceless demographic and customer service info here they need to address.

I have always told folks to vote with their dollars. If you don't like what's happening, go elsewhere. If it happened at Hunter, I would view it as a situation like you are in...give it a year to see what plays out, then move on if I'm unhappy. It's my (your) choice. And I would look at it as a positive, an opportunity to move on and ski elsewhere. Yes, I might have to drive further or consider owning a ski home. I can make it happen if I have the motivation.

But I'm still baffled by the level of expectation of the new owners I see here. You all are expecting them to make up for the years of abuse you got from ASC, and in spades. Cheap passes, long season (which has not really been in play for at least 5 years), on hill improvements, more snowmaking. That I do not think is rational.