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Sugarloaf Bucksaw Chair....RIP

Jully

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The problem with the extended KP is it makes that pod on the mountain have a pretty long flat section at the end of the pod, basically the entire length of the extension. However, more people are doing Burnt than KP then it's a fine move
 

goldenboy80

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Ok, I have never been to Sugarloaf, and don't plan to anytime soon, but all this talk about its poor lift layout got me thinking about how I would fix it. This might look crazy to some Sugarloaf regulars but I tried to think out of the box.
I think it's an interesting idea that is also creative. If I had to pick a deficiency in the plan is that it doesn't contemplate a high speed option from the base to service advanced terrain. I think there should be some easy to access lift from the bottom that just delivers every time. When Wescott proposed a signature lift in 2009 after the recession, it still received a lot of support. There were some productive discussions around interesting ways to finance it. Now the economy is a little more stable and by next year Sugarloaf may very well have a new owner (potentially with deeper pockets). Currently the Super Quad is our signature lift from the base. I'm not sure removing and replacing with a hot Bucksaw chair would qualify as our KT-22. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUjTr_l2BdQ
 

Jully

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I love the idea of a hot Bucksaw lift, however, the SuperQuad has a great mix of some advanced options. Bucksaw is too low to reach some of the trails to the lookers right. I could work with no SuperQuad versus a carpet loaded double runner and high speed KP.
 

Newpylong

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I think not having a single chair to serve the race trails ie Narrow Gauge would be an issue. I really like the plan but would leave the Super Quad as is and simply install another HSQ to replace Bucksaw.

The problem they have is the current layout is just so bad and many lifts needing replacement where do they begin?

Their lift replacement pace has been glacial and reactionary.
 

machski

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Their lift replacement pace has been glacial and reactionary.

True and in hindsight it seems reactionary, but they (Boyne) have dropped enough money on snowmaking improvements to have replaced two lifts with HS lifts to this point. And in my opinion, they needed to do all the snowmaking work ahead of lifts. SL's system was ancient and vastly inadequate prior to Boyne stepping in. New, fast lifts are nice but do nothing for you if you don't have the snow to deliver skiers and riders onto.
 

goldenboy80

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New, fast lifts are nice but do nothing for you if you don't have the snow to deliver skiers and riders onto.
I would never look a "gift" HKD SV10 Impulse snow gun in the nozzle, but to assume the devil's advocate perspective, and I understand this is hyperbolic, new snow guns do nothing for you when your ski lifts are literally trying to murder you. My perspective is this-- I grew up in Maine until I was 18 then moved out of state for job opportunities. When I am trying to convince my New England friends to drive a bunch of hours to Maine to enjoy my favorite home mountain with me, you'd rather have them say, isn't that the place that just put in a bunch of new lifts versus isn't that the place where a bunch of people got dropped from lifts. I know they're doing a good job retrofitting repairs and safety features but a major investment in new cool lifts would resolve the perception problem. If you're seeking uncrowded slopes maybe you don't mind the perception problem because you know its actually safe following the anti-rollback and lift removal initiatives. I'm just looking at it from a business perspective cause my head kind of works like that.
 

deadheadskier

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Even with the lift problems, business at Sugarloaf has been better than ever the past five years. I'm not saying it can't improve, but those who thought their business would suffer after the Spillway accident were wrong. I'm guessing they'll do just fine next year to despite the King Pine accident this year.
 

goldenboy80

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I'm guessing they'll do just fine next year to despite the King Pine accident this year.
Yes, in the past they seem to have bounced back nicely. Sugarloaf skiers are incredibly loyal. The core faithful will always be there. I think where you run into problems is in the area of growth... the marginal NH family or Montreal spring breakers that have options and may be on the fence about booking. Then there is the issue of what could have been... maybe visitors were up 3% last year and could have been up 5% (illustrative) without the accidents and with timely and sensible upgrades.
 

deadheadskier

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Maybe. Just pointing out that your perception that their business isn't keeping up with the competition is false. They're holding their own just fine despite not having "cool new lifts."

It's a testament to the terrain they have. People are willing to put up with the cold, wind holds and the long ass drive to ski the awesome terrain they have.
 

goldenboy80

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Maybe. Just pointing out that your perception that their business isn't keeping up with the competition is false.
I would say that separating out visitation from business competitiveness, as it is currently configured, the lift system at Sugarloaf is unsustainable. I went on New England Ski History to do a quick tally of average lift age for each resort. Here is the average lift age of several of Sugarloaf's competitors (includes old T-bars and Poma Lifts): Sugarloaf (31.5 yrs including Bucksaw, 30.3 without it), Killington (27.0 years), Sunday River (22.3 years), Loon Mountain (23.4 years), Stowe (17.1 years), Jay Peak (22.7 years), Stratton (23.6 years), Sugarbush (23.0 years). So the good news is that Killington is in the same camp as Sugarloaf in terms of an aging lift system that needs to be addressed. The bad news is that the rest of Sugarloaf's competition is almost a decade ahead of them in terms of lift capacity. It's not just that Sugarloaf can hang on by a thread now. It's the fact that over the next ten years, Sugarloaf will have "catch up" deferred capital expenditures, perhaps $10 million, that needs to be spent just to tread water relative to its competition (from the standpoint of safety if nothing else). Whatever the amount of catch-up capital expenditures happens to be is money that can't be spent on other important projects such as base lodge improvements, hospitality, infrastructure, etc. So from a competitiveness standpoint, being behind the eight ball on lifts is not ideal as it affects the entire resort. It's also somewhat of an albatross from the standpoint of potential buyers. Stowe and Stratton are smart because they have huge capacity but do it with relatively few lifts (11 each).
 

steamboat1

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Not defending Killington since they haven't installed a new lift in 6 years but I'm sure their average is skewed. They have 1 operational lift dating back to 1958 (Snowdon poma) & two others from the early 60's (Snowshed I & II). If you take them out of the equation I'm sure their average is much more in line with other areas. Snowshed I & II are rarely used & even the poma has seen much less use the past two seasons.
 

goldenboy80

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As a cautionary tale, this is what happens when your favorite mountain lets its competition install high speed quads without responding... you end up hanging out on a porch in your shorts drinking tequila off of an old Rossignal. Is this what you want? JK, these are friends.
Shotski.jpg
 

goldenboy80

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If you take them out of the equation I'm sure their average is much more in line with other areas.
Yup, I hear you regarding Killington. Most of these resorts have 1 or 2 clunkers (though not necessarily unsafe if they are surface lifts). Loon, Jay Peak, and Sugarbush all have a clunker or two from the 1960's. I left them all in for the sake of consistency. You could say even Sugarloaf looks worse than it is since Snubber, Sawduster, Skidway, and Double Runners are not as dangerous since they are baby lifts but anything can happen.
 

deadheadskier

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I am very doubtful the general public can compare ski areas based on age of lifts.

Yeah, people aren't going to websites and figuring out how old the lifts are at a given area.

I'm sure people would like a new lift to help relieve base congestion. It is stated that the Double Runners are in line for replacement. That should help a lot. Hopefully when they are built, the base of the lifts are more convenient to the Base Lodge. That's their biggest problem. I'm sure many people with young kids opt for Sunday River because the lifts all go right close to the lodge/parking.

You can spin things however you want Goldenboy, but it doesn't change that Sugarloaf is doing the best business they ever have in terms of skier visits and revenue. If that starts to change, I'm sure they will react appropriately if the resources are available. They have so far under Boyne. Slow and steady wins the race. Too fast, and you're the next ASC.
 

goldenboy80

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I am very doubtful the general public can compare ski areas based on age of lifts.
You are absolutely 100% correct. It's cause and effect, symptom and affliction. You don't know the average age of the lifts but you see news articles in the paper and people talking about the accidents. We wouldn't even be talking about this issue at all if we we didn't see the symptoms.
 

cdskier

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Not defending Killington since they haven't installed a new lift in 6 years but I'm sure their average is skewed. They have 1 operational lift dating back to 1958 (Snowdon poma) & two others from the early 60's (Snowshed I & II). If you take them out of the equation I'm sure their average is much more in line with other areas. Snowshed I & II are rarely used & even the poma has seen much less use the past two seasons.

Agreed. Sugarbush is skewed by 2 remaining lifts from the 60s which are not really key lifts as well. The Village Double serves a bunny hill. The Sunshine double is another short lift that just serves the terrain park at ME. Take those out of the equation and SB's average lift age drops to 18-19 years. And then what about older lifts that have been completely overhauled? At Sugarbush for example, just last season a number of key lifts were significantly rebuilt (complete replacement of electronics and/or drive train in some cases, etc). Replacing key lift components really make the lifts "act" much younger than they are.

Overall I agree with the theme of most people in the last few comments that the lift infrastructure age is not something your average person considers when deciding where to go skiing. Sure a new lift can potentially generate some buzz and maybe attract more people, but I know I've never based a decision on this.
 

Jully

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Unless it's a key lift, like the Double Runners at SL as a primary path out of the base lodge, I don't really agree with looking at lift age as a degree of competitiveness for a resort.

As long as the old lift is safe and runs at a halfway decent speed, assuming it's not a main lift up the mountain, who cares how old it is?

Not that Waterville fits into the discussion of SL, Killington, etc, but the age of the lifts fit in my opinion. You have the Northside Double and Sunnyside Triple both 35 years old or so, but they work fine for their purpose. I don't see a need to replace those lifts at all.
 
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