The "Sugarbush Thread"

[HowieT2]

I just thought the comment was unwarrented. Some people think that Castlerock is this powder paradise being held out. The relaity is that people have been skinning and poaching CR even before they opened it. OK I will say it. I was one of them. Hell I know people that skied it as fast grass after the first snow fall. LOL The point is that this lift appears to be broken and ski patrol has nothing to do with it and in the interim go get the goods yourself. It's not that big a deal.

I'm shocked that there's gambling going on this establishment!

 

[HowieT2]

A few pages ago someone said it was important to replace HG but really? NR has had mechanical problems for many years now, AFAIK not the case with HG? Admit I ride more at ME these days as I hate crowds but the only time HG has not been running for me was windhold. That's not to say the mountain shouldn't be proactive to a degree but first deal with the known problem children?

This is not correct. HG was not mechanically well and 40 years old. you can go back in this thread if you're interested.
And we all agree that NRX needs to be replaced. Unfortunately, none of us internet jockeys have a spare HSQ to donate, nor 15m USD or whatever it costs. At least I don't.

 

[doublediamond]

HG had a lot of issues mechanically and with wind. It serves an entire pod all by itself.

NRX has a lot of issues mechanically but 100% of its terrain can be skied without it. Yes you need to ride 2 lifts. And yes you need to ski a runout. But by that it is the definition of a secondary lift.

Should NRX be scrapped and replaced? Yes. But saying it should’ve been the priority over HG is mind boggling from an operations perspective.

 

[Newpylong]

Supe, needles, and skyeship are on hold, how is that nearly shutdown?

Are you skiing here today? Every lift was on wind hold at the opening bell. Now it's relegated to Skye Peak.

 

[MrGlen]

Who cares if the trail report says castle rock is closed. Who is stopping you from skinning up??

 

[solar]

I always give Operations the benefit of the doubt since there's a ton of external variables they have to contend with. Plus, those gals & guys are just badass. Snow makers, groomers, mechanics, patrollers... odd hours, brutal conditions, rarely get a 'thanks'. They're cut from another cloth. Keep on crushing it, you crazies.

But marketing... not so much. Sugarbush is notoriously out of the PR limelight when compared to Stowe and Killington (that's a plus, in my opinion) so you'd think the focus would be on sustaining and building brand loyalty among their stable stakeholders. Even more so after Hammond stated their goal is not skier visit growth.

It's been two weeks (tomorrow) since their last State of the Mountain report in which they wrote, "we’ve been posting these weekly since the start of the month, and my plan is to continue to do that until we run out of things to talk about." Between the new year, snow, wind, and lift issues, it certainly seems like there's enough for them to talk about. Hell, just go comb the last few weeks of AlpineZone for talking points.

Win and, to a lesser extent, Egan, were great PR people for Sugarbush. The community loves them and largely felt they accurately represented, if not also shared, their interests. Hammond appears less interested in being the public figure for Sugarbush. To each, his own. But, as it's been said before on this thread, Alterra needs someone to fill Win's communication gap.

Sugarbush seems lost and disconnected from their core customers. Locals are frustrated. Vacation homeowners are frustrated. Vacationers & day-trip'ers are frustrated... Everyone has grown to expect a certain level of service from Sugarbush. When it doesn't meet that expectation, and there was no communication to accurately set expectations, the problems are compounded. So many of the concerns and complaints boil down to a sheer lack of communication. Sugarbush needs someone willing and able to communicate to the community & customers whether the news is good, bad, or ugly. Reputationally in the least.

MRG has no frills, proving that Sugarbush doesn't have to be Stowe or Killington (and we're all here because they're not) to be loved... but as a business, does have a responsibility to accurately represent it's service level to customers which it is currently not meeting.

 

[foofy]

I've had multiple conversations this year - randomly - with new-to-me people - when the conversation turns to skiing, then VT if not in VT, and these folks bring up Sugarbush and all the same complaints everyone on here are posting. The frustration extends far and wide.

 

[Hawk]

I'm shocked that there's gambling going on this establishment!

OK I am slow. I don't get the joke. Explain please.

 

[KustyTheKlown]

OK I am slow. I don't get the joke. Explain please.

im not sure the specific source of the old joke, but it is basically expressing shock at the obvious evidence of illicit activities. in this example, people skiing castlerock without lift access.

 

[NewEnglander77]

I always give Operations the benefit of the doubt since there's a ton of external variables they have to contend with. Plus, those gals & guys are just badass. Snow makers, groomers, mechanics, patrollers... odd hours, brutal conditions, rarely get a 'thanks'. They're cut from another cloth. Keep on crushing it, you crazies.

But marketing... not so much. Sugarbush is notoriously out of the PR limelight when compared to Stowe and Killington (that's a plus, in my opinion) so you'd think the focus would be on sustaining and building brand loyalty among their stable stakeholders. Even more so after Hammond stated their goal is not skier visit growth.

It's been two weeks (tomorrow) since their last State of the Mountain report in which they wrote, "we’ve been posting these weekly since the start of the month, and my plan is to continue to do that until we run out of things to talk about." Between the new year, snow, wind, and lift issues, it certainly seems like there's enough for them to talk about. Hell, just go comb the last few weeks of AlpineZone for talking points.

Win and, to a lesser extent, Egan, were great PR people for Sugarbush. The community loves them and largely felt they accurately represented, if not also shared, their interests. Hammond appears less interested in being the public figure for Sugarbush. To each, his own. But, as it's been said before on this thread, Alterra needs someone to fill Win's communication gap.

Sugarbush seems lost and disconnected from their core customers. Locals are frustrated. Vacation homeowners are frustrated. Vacationers & day-trip'ers are frustrated... Everyone has grown to expect a certain level of service from Sugarbush. When it doesn't meet that expectation, and there was no communication to accurately set expectations, the problems are compounded. So many of the concerns and complaints boil down to a sheer lack of communication. Sugarbush needs someone willing and able to communicate to the community & customers whether the news is good, bad, or ugly. Reputationally in the least.

MRG has no frills, proving that Sugarbush doesn't have to be Stowe or Killington (and we're all here because they're not) to be loved... but as a business, does have a responsibility to accurately represent it's service level to customers which it is currently not meeting.

Well said! Disconnected and frustrated. We can turn that in to patience and empathy with a little love from SB.

Hammond does not need to be the face, but somone consistent should be. Nobody knows the random reporter or blogger of the day. JJ Toland was very public facing when he was at Jay Peak, worked a comms director under Win's ownership and is now VP of Sales and Marketing at SB. If they only did half as good of a job communicating as Jay Peak does, we'd be better off than we are. Jay sets the standard in my opinion.

I can't help but feel that management knows they have problems and the decsion is concious to communicate in the reactive manner and not be forthright. To me, that is arrogant, does not invite loyalty and is cold and institutional. Clearly they have the poeple and tools do "Be Better" if they choose. I am loyal to a fault and this is what bothers me the most. We all want to feel like part of the family, not another IKON barcode.

 

[urungus]

“Your winnings sir”

 

[ColdRain&Snow]

you'd think the focus would be on sustaining and building brand loyalty among their stable stakeholders. Even more so after Hammond stated their goal is not skier visit growth.

Is the goal higher revenue/visit via F&B?, I guess people hiking with ski gear get hungrier and thirstier than people riding lifts

 

[vtski802]

Who cares if the trail report says castle rock is closed. Who is stopping you from skinning up??

Well, no one, but you'd have to agree that it's strange they've been promoting it as open very recently and now it's completely left off the report and map.

 

[Shredmonkey254]

I've had multiple conversations this year - randomly - with new-to-me people - when the conversation turns to skiing, then VT if not in VT, and these folks bring up Sugarbush and all the same complaints everyone on here are posting. The frustration extends far and wide.

I too have had a couple chair lift rides with strangers while at Stratton this year and when they find out I'm a Sugarbush homeboy, they ask what is going on there. They know there are lift and snow making issues, so it's not just us on the forum wondering what the deal is.

 

[Kleetus]

Pulled the trigger on heading up tomorrow night after work for Saturday and Sunday. Hopefully it's not too wind scoured.

I also completely agree with all the bitching here about the lift issues. I got burned a few times last year by them and I'm not happy seeing it's continuing into this season. As a double whammy my home mountain, Gore, has been a shit show this year of lift issues AND lack of snowmaking. Crazy how downhill Gore has gone this season while Whiteface is killing it this year ( as a result of last year's shit show) and Belle is too as usual.

 

[SkiTheEast]

At the end of the day, its dollars and cents. Piecing a lot of what has been said, Alterra money is flowing into areas to fund terrain expansion and financed alongside real estate development which will bring more skier visits (and more $$). Given that the Sugarbush strategy is seemingly different - there isn't necessarily the desire (don't want to grow beyond what the current infrastructure will support) or ability (available land, permitting, etc) the only growth is through wringing more money out of the existing clientele (PE needs the revenue growth) and that is going to come largely from locals, second homeowners and loyalist visitors - (for example the cost of things like the Blazers programs have almost DOUBLED since Alterra took over).

Like it or not it makes sense that a lot of the investment we are seeing are to areas that encourage the spending of money (new/revamped bars, lodging, Paradise Provisions, cutting new downhill bike trails on Gate House to encourage 4 season visits, etc)...I'd love to be wrong about this but I suspect the Alterra investment we'll continue to see will be the type that maintains/augments the existing infrastructure on an as needed basis but is not flashy and will flow commensurate with the revenue growth they demonstrate...the balance point will be ensuring that the existing product doesn't fully collapse in the interim to make the existing clientele question their loyalty which is where forthright, proactive communication becomes key. I agree, people have grown attached to this community that was fostered by Win his predecessors and so tough pill to swallow when made to feel like just another ikon pass holder...

 

[Tin Woodsman]

I have a hard time believing that the flow of money to DV, Steamboat, Palisades etc.. has anything to do with much of this (pushing NRX replacement off indefinitely is an exception). Sugarbush's inability to get or keep its lifts operating seems very much like a homegrown problem. I mean the head of Lift Maintenance literally said it in that last update - they don't have enough mechanics on staff to do the work. All of these issues come back to not have the people to do the necessary work in the off-season when it's supposed to be done vs. in sub-freezing temps in Dec/Jan. I have ZERO sympathy for the issues they are experiencing in that regard (while at the same time having tremendous empathy for the poor guys out there having to do the work while short-staffed). None at all.

Yes we have annual bitching and moaning fests about lack of snowmaking, and as many of SB's defenders have pointed out, being first/fastest/biggest in snowmaking is not their brand or their goal. That's fine. But the lift issues are entirely separate, and VERY much in their control. When you further consider the pretty poor operational planning that lead to every resort in VT having more terrain open in the run-up to the holiday week, there's something rotten in Denmark. These are all local, operational decisions - no one in Denver is telling them how many mechanics they can hire or what their season-opening strategy should be. Too much smoke here to just blithely ignore and say "well I can always run off to [insert mountain here]".

Then you combine that with a major lack of transparency, it's a pretty toxic brew that is corroding their brand, as the numerous anecdotal stories shared in this thread seem to validate.

 

[NewEnglander77]

I think what's being suggested is that the lift issues are partly result of the decision to forego investment in replacing very aged equipment due to putting $ elsewhere. No excuses for lack of early maintenance and proper staffing, but shit is going to fail more frequently and be harder to fix at end of life and with fewer replacement parts readily available. Even with proper staffing and maintenance, issues and downtime will be more freuquent with the existing infrastructure.

Will be interesting to see how reliable the new HG chair is this season relative to the past 2 seasons with the old lift. It was down alot when needed the most the past few years.

 

[cdskier]

I think what's being suggested is that the lift issues are partly result of the decision to forego investment in replacing very aged equipment due to putting $ elsewhere. No excuses for lack of early maintenance and proper staffing, but shit is going to fail more frequently and be harder to fix at end of life and with fewer replacement parts readily available. Even with proper staffing and maintenance, issues and downtime will be more freuquent with the existing infrastructure.

Will be interesting to see how reliable the new HG chair is this season relative to the past 2 seasons with the old lift. It was down alot when needed the most the past few years.

I disagree. Most of Sugarbush's lifts are not at the point (from an age perspective) where any other owner would be replacing them proactively either. (NRX is a whole other animal).

As for HG, I actually thought last year it ran fairly well. Almost like it knew it was being replaced and wanted to show off in the last year to try to say it wasn't ready to quit.

 

[vtski802]