Thoughts on Killington's shortened season (expected closing day is 4/13/2008)?

[snoseek]

why not stay open fri-mon? charge 40 bucks and after maybe apr 15 shut off season passes and sell discounted tix (just to recover cost) to passholders? seems fair.

 

[awf170]

But I understand the business model that POWDR aspires to and that ain't in the plan. And they own the place now. So, either get over it or ski elsewhere.

Yep. There is more than one way to make a ski area successful. The audience that Powder now wants K-mart to cater to probably doesn't care about late season skiing.

 

[millerm277]

Yep. There is more than one way to make a ski area successful. The audience that Powder now wants K-mart to cater to probably doesn't care about late season skiing.

Which is fine (well, I hate it, but it's a fine way to go), except for the fact that Killington has never successfully catered to that crowd before, and I can't see that changing now. The village is probably going to take 5 to 7 years minimum, and there's no chance you'll see those people showing up until that's done.

Other problems for catering to the $$$ crowds.

Crowds and crowded lodges.....I don't think the price increases are really going to solve this much.
It's big, and difficult to get around for people that don't know the area very well.
It's steep.
It's further away than Stratton or Okemo.
The lifts are slow (which is necessary since the trails would be insane otherwise, but $$$ people tend to like things like Stratton's lift set-up)

 

[ski_resort_observer]

Which is fine (well, I hate it, but it's a fine way to go), except for the fact that Killington has never successfully catered to that crowd before, and I can't see that changing now. The village is probably going to take 5 to 7 years minimum, and there's no chance you'll see those people showing up until that's done.

Other problems for catering to the $$$ crowds.

Crowds and crowded lodges.....I don't think the price increases are really going to solve this much.
It's big, and difficult to get around for people that don't know the area very well.
It's steep.
It's further away than Stratton or Okemo.
The lifts are slow (which is necessary since the trails would be insane otherwise, but $$$ people tend to like things like Stratton's lift set-up)

A couple of points....4 years ago when kmart's SP pass prices were much higher they had 995,000 skier visits, guessing it was around 750,000 this past season so a 20% increase as a goal for Powdr is not a crazy number.

I don't think they are going for the $$$ crowds but maybe the $$ crowd getting away from the $ crowd.

The village will take at least 4 years to get going but if no one shows up until then they are in for a hard ride in the next few years. I think they hope to start turning things around after next season.

 

[2knees]

Crowds and crowded lodges.....I don't think the price increases are really going to solve this much.

You dont think eliminating the bronze pass will reduce weekend crowds? I beg to differ.

It's big, and difficult to get around for people that don't know the area very well.

While it is big, i think people vastly exaggerate the difficulty in navigating the place. If this were such a big deal, why are there so many never evers that ski there. and families. and british tourist groups. and on and on.

It's steep.

Not to be callous, but so what? And it isnt any steeper then many areas to the north. actually, i'd say its pretty tame outside of a couple of trails.

It's further away than Stratton or Okemo.

But closer than stowe or sugarbush.

The lifts are slow (which is necessary since the trails would be insane otherwise, but $$$ people tend to like things like Stratton's lift set-up)

It has alot of slow lifts because there are alot of lifts period. The ss quad, the needles eye quad, the k1 and skyeship arent slow. and they service a very large chunk of terrain. The only lift that is a real problem is the skye peak quad cause its so darn long. Ok, snowdon at least needs an upgrade even if its another fixed grip. The canyon quad is not bad and the bear mtn quad is just fine as is. Its only 1000 vert and not long due to the steepness of the terrain. Additionally, i'm not sure why you are saying rich people only want to ski at areas with multiple high speed lifts servicing every nook and cranny of a ski area. Stowe brought in alot of money even before the 4 runner quad went in. I think people get a bit overworked thinking killington is marketing themselves right out of business. Its a huge ski area that is probably the most well known area to the masses in the east and will always draw more than its fair share of 5 day a year skiers looking for a vacation.

 

[JimG.]

Here's probably what you'd hear:

"$72 for 1 trail? Forget it!" "Those SP/Powdr people are crooks" "It doesn't cost $72, they're only running one lift!"

I agree with you; and there aren't enough idiots like me who would gladly pay to make it worth their while to do it.

You can thank the A41 for that...and take a look a Breeze's post below. $1200 for an SR pass in the 90's and people were lining up to pay and buy real estate. Today, they would be attacked in this forum just like POWDR is now.

 

[JimG.]

Mt. Bachelor closed on May 20th. Mount Hood is about a 3 hour drive away.

A month later than I thought. The way people from there have been bitching about it, you would think they closed the end of March.

At 3 hours, there really isn't a close by competitor to pressure them to stay open longer. And it's very possible that POWDR's plan simply concedes that later than 5/20 business to Hood.

I tell you, expectations are way out of line with reality.

 

[threecy]

It's just like baseball - practically everyone in New England knows how to manage and general manage the Red Sox better than Fraconia and Epstein.

 

[JohnGD33]

Yep. There is more than one way to make a ski area successful. The audience that Powder now wants K-mart to cater to probably doesn't care about late season skiing.

I will take the extra drive time and go to smuggs and stowe

 

[win]

Add Sugabush to your list. We would love to see you here!

 

[JimG.]

Add Sugabush to your list. We would love to see you here!

win, would you ever consider staying open until June 1 on a regular, planned out basis? Make it a yearly plan skiers could count on?

I'm asking because I sense you would consider doing it if there was another ridiculous April snow month like this past season followed by cold lingering into late May. So I'm wondering if the idea of making it a yearly plan would work for you.

 

[Greg]

win, would you ever consider staying open until June 1 on a regular, planned out basis? Make it a yearly plan skiers could count on?

I'm asking because I sense you would consider doing it if there was another ridiculous April snow month like this past season followed by cold lingering into late May. So I'm wondering if the idea of making it a yearly plan would work for you.

He already touched on this here (see q&a #7):

http://skiing.alpinezone.com/articles/challenge/2007/response.htm?resort=sugarbush

But it would be interesting if you could expand on that, Win. How do you (or can you) qualify the success of staying open late as a marketing tactic? Would running through May be something you'd consider especially since Killington seems to be out of the game?

 

[JimG.]

He already touched on this here (see q&a #7):

http://skiing.alpinezone.com/articles/challenge/2007/response.htm?resort=sugarbush

But it would be interesting if you could expand on that, Win. How do you (or can you) qualify the success of staying open late as a marketing tactic? Would running through May be something you'd consider especially since Killington seems to be out of the game?

Yes, to a degree. But it would be good for late season advocates to read what he wrote there. THEY DON'T MAKE ANY MONEY STAYING OPEN LATE. It's for marketing and customer appreciation.

I guess what I'm after from win is if he thinks the goodwill generated from an "open late" policy translates into profit at other times of the year. Because alot of folks who talk about Killington have said they went there for the early/late season skiing. Well, if they don't go at other times of the year, then staying open late is nothing but expense and not worth it.

But that's from my limited perspective.

 

[Greg]

I guess what I'm after from win is if he thinks the goodwill generated from an "open late" policy translates into profit at other times of the year. Because alot of folks who talk about Killington have said they went there for the early/late season skiing. Well, if they don't go at other times of the year, then staying open late is nothing but expense and not worth it.

Very interesting observation. However, you need to think about this in terms of pass purchases. If people opt for a pass because the mountain offers early/late season operations, they'll presumably use it throughout the season. Killington's season is now just like any other mountain's so they will undoubtedly lose those passholders as a result. It would be interesting to see Win's take on this.

 

[JimG.]

Very interesting observation. However, you need to think about this in terms of pass purchases. If people opt for a pass because the mountain offers early/late season operations, they'll presumably use it throughout the season. Killington's season is now just like any other mountain's so they will undoubtedly lose those passholders as a result. It would be interesting to see Win's take on this.

See, I don't think it's that simple. Are you telling me that season passholders who also own property at K are going to sell their condos over the summer and pull up stakes and move to another hill because of the season length? Not happening. Nobody I know or who has posted here is doing that.

Will the people who bought A41's go elsewhere? Undoubtedly. But that's a function of unrealistic expectations regarding pass prices more than late season operations. Are folks going to drive 3 hours further to get a deal at Sunday River? Not happening. And other folks will get a dose of reality/sticker shock about pass prices, wake up, and go right back to K. And they'll pay the pass prices.

You need to get rid of the word "undoubtedly" and put the words "some of" after "lose".

 

[Vortex]

See, I don't think it's that simple. Are you telling me that season passholders who also own property at K are going to sell their condos over the summer and pull up stakes and move to another hill because of the season length? Not happening. Nobody I know or who has posted here is doing that.

Will the people who bought A41's go elsewhere? Undoubtedly. But that's a function of unrealistic expectations regarding pass prices more than late season operations. Are folks going to drive 3 hours further to get a deal at Sunday River? Not happening. And other folks will get a dose of reality/sticker shock about pass prices, wake up, and go right back to K. And they'll pay the pass prices.

You need to get rid of the word "undoubtedly" and put the words "some of" after "lose".

Jim I left Loon for that reason partly and have my place on the market. I doubled my drive. 3 hours is not alot for many, but seems long after driving 1.5 for 7 years.

 

[JimG.]

Jim I left Loon for that reason partly and have my place on the market. I doubled my drive. 3 hours is not alot for many, but seems long after driving 1.5 for 7 years.

I think you misunderstood...3 hours total each way is not terrible. But I wasn't referring to people who drove 1 1/2 hours going to 3 hours.

I was talking about folks who drive 2 1/2-3 hours now having to increase that drive by 2-3 hours more to get to Sunday River instead of K. Are people going to drive 4 1/2 to 6 hours each way to ski each weekend? Doubtful.

 

[thetrailboss]

Yes, to a degree. But it would be good for late season advocates to read what he wrote there. THEY DON'T MAKE ANY MONEY STAYING OPEN LATE. It's for marketing and customer appreciation.

I guess what I'm after from win is if he thinks the goodwill generated from an "open late" policy translates into profit at other times of the year. Because alot of folks who talk about Killington have said they went there for the early/late season skiing. Well, if they don't go at other times of the year, then staying open late is nothing but expense and not worth it.

But that's from my limited perspective.

I think that the late season skiing is both a goodwill/PR thing and a revenue thing. At least it was for SKI.

It goes back to what I said (way back somewhere here in this thread) and that is that SKI's philosophy and business-model focused on skiing and riding.

A friend of mine let me see her old copies of SKI's annual reports. The reports back this up. Their core business and revenue source was skiing/riding. So the longer the ski season was, the more LIKELY it was that they would generate revenue. Back then they did have some off-season revenue, but most of it came when those lifts were turning. There was no real estate action or focus. Pres Smith wasn't a real estate whiz...he knew how to manage and build a ski area and the folks with him did as well. Their attitude was it was better to have the lifts turning and make some revenue, then to have them sit idle and make no revenue. They had little choice since skiing was their business. (Pico's docs from that time suggest that their revenue, even with the alpine slide, etc. was 95% skiing).

It's just that those who focus on other priorities (i.e. using capital for real estate, trying to minimize overwhelming debt, etc) don't have the same perspective.

 

[Greg]

See, I don't think it's that simple. Are you telling me that season passholders who also own property at K are going to sell their condos over the summer and pull up stakes and move to another hill because of the season length? Not happening. Nobody I know or who has posted here is doing that.

Well, yes. I've read a few accounts of property owners being pissed because they specifically bought property at Killington because of the long season. Not sure I get your point though. I would expect that there are many more former pass holders that typically day tripped or rented a place or joined a ski house up there. Pretty damn easy for these pass holders to go with a new mountain.

Will the people who bought A41's go elsewhere? Undoubtedly. But that's a function of unrealistic expectations regarding pass prices more than late season operations. Are folks going to drive 3 hours further to get a deal at Sunday River? Not happening. And other folks will get a dose of reality/sticker shock about pass prices, wake up, and go right back to K. And they'll pay the pass prices.

You can't look at these things independently. I too feel that those solely bitching about the increased pass prices are doing so from a position of entitlement. However, combine an increased pass price with a shortened season and I can totally understand the less for more gripe.

You need to get rid of the word "undoubtedly" and put the words "some of" after "lose".

Come on. We're arguing semantics now? :roll: Jim - you're dreaming if you don't think these events are going to result in Killington losing some (I say a significant number of) pass holders:

• Lifetime pass issue (whether it directly affects them or not)
• Increased pass prices
• Shorter season

I understand the whole this is business argument. I get it. But there also needs to be some balance. Many would argue Killington/Powdr is dropping the ball on the public relations front. Many people aren't going to sit back and just accept all this because it might ultimately be better for Killington's bottom line.

It's going to be an interesting season for sure.

 

[thetrailboss]

• Lifetime pass issue (whether it directly affects them or not)
• Increased pass prices
• Shorter season

I understand the whole this is business argument. I get it. But there also needs to be some balance. Many would argue Killington/Powdr is dropping the ball on the public relations front. Many people aren't going to sit back and just accept all this because it might ultimately be better for Killington's bottom line.

It's going to be an interesting season for sure.

Add firing longtime employees as well.


Though we don't have any idea "why" they did fire those folks. So there's some benefit of the doubt....