Thoughts on Killington's shortened season (expected closing day is 4/13/2008)?

[awf170]

Yes, you understood completely...I do not believe there are enough skiers in those time frames to make a huge difference to any well run local business. I was up there on 4/29 a week before they closed this season and half the businesses were closed already! Those businesses KNOW already it doesn't pay to stay open past mid-April.

I know property owners up at K, families who spend plenty up there. No, they don't care at all about skiing past April because they have families and other activities come May. That's just a fact.

The new K doesn't care about the single, hard core skier who will hike for turns in June and ski until they are peeled off the lifts. They want families and they want to run their operation like Okemo and Stratton.

Are you trying to say that a successful ski company like Powder, that probably hires people to research stuff just like this, knows more than a bunch of internet armchair quarterbacks? I can't believe it.


I bet Powder makes record money this season...

 

[Greg]

Are you trying to say that a successful ski company like Powder, that probably hires people to research stuff just like this, knows more than a bunch of internet armchair quarterbacks? I can't believe it.

:lol:

Highway Star = King of the internet armchair quarterbacks

 

[JimG.]

Are you trying to say that a successful ski company like Powder, that probably hires people to research stuff just like this, knows more than a bunch of internet armchair quarterbacks? I can't believe it.


I bet Powder makes record money this season...

Wise guy.

But I think you got my point. Look, the Killington that was there since 2000 wasn't my cup of tea anymore. Like most here, I stopped going regularly when the extended season became endangered and then extinct. To me, the early/late season skiing ended after 2000 for the most part. So to me, shortening it what really amounts to 2 weeks is insignificant.

Do I wish they had an extended season, especially past Memorial day? Sure. But I understand the business model that POWDR aspires to and that ain't in the plan. And they own the place now. So, either get over it or ski elsewhere.

 

[Greg]

Do I wish they had an extended season, especially past Memorial day? Sure. But I understand the business model that POWDR aspires to and that ain't in the plan. And they own the place now. So, either get over it or ski elsewhere.

Most people probably also feel this way. What I think will be interesting is to see if any other ski areas attempt to fill this void.

I probably will not make a valiant effort to get out before Thanksgiving this year (my track record is not good anyway).

 

[Vortex]

I paid to ski in May this year. I will again if I have the option next year. Sure I hope that SR is the 1st open and the last to close and my pass will work, but some of us will pay to ski early and late season if they have an option. Seems like enough of us will come to make money as well.

Breeze can comment here.. Look how excited wildcat was about the late season turn out and yes money made. they posted on their web site how they were excited about the turnout and it was more than they expected(parapharase here)

It is all about comapny structure and lift and labor lay out. If you can run 1 or two lifts with minimal staff and open weekend it works. April 13th is a shame IMO.

April 13th and June 1st are quite different.

This is not a black and white story.
I see you point on pass prices Jim.(not sure I agree, but your point is well stated) I don't agree on season length.

 

[JimG.]

Most people probably also feel this way. What I think will be interesting is to see if any other ski areas attempt to fill this void.

Nobody has yet.

Has any ski area other than Killington tried to stay open to Memorial day in the past 20 years? Which only lends more creedence to the thought it's not worth it for them to do so.

 

[JimG.]

I paid to ski in May this year. I will again if I have the option next year. Sure I hope that SR is the 1st open adn the last to close and my pass will work, but some of us will pay to ski early and late season if they have an option. Seems like enough of us will come to make money as well.

Breeze can comment here.. Look how excited wildcat was about the late season turn out and yes money made. they posted on their web site how they were excited about the turnout and it was more than they expected(parapharase here)

It is all about comapny structure and lift and labor lay out. If you can run 1 or two lifts with minimal staff and open weekend it works. April 13th is a shame IMO.

April 13th and June 1st are quite different.

This is not a black and white story.
I see you point on pass prices Jim.(not sure I agree, but your point is well sateed) I don't agree on season length.

There's a disconnect here...when is the last time K stayed open until 6/1? 5 years ago at least.

There is a big difference between early May and early June. ASC killed the extended season long ago. Why are people blaming the new owners now that thay want to shorten the season what really amounts to 2 weeks?

I think some folks are living in the past and are angry at POWDR for something ASC did.

 

[SkiDog]

There's a disconnect here...when is the last time K stayed open until 6/1? 5 years ago at least.

There is a big difference between early May and early June. ASC killed the extended season long ago. Why are people blaming the new owners now that thay want to shorten the season what really amounts to 2 weeks?

I think some folks are living in the past and are angry at POWDR for something ASC did.

Well in defense of ASC it was always longer than POWDR is proposing.

Jim you may very well have a different view if you bought property at the K years ago and bought it based on season length (which likely a skier like you would've done).

It stinks what POWDR is already doing to that mtn...layoffs...25+ yr FULL TIME Ski Patrol??? Why would you fire that guy??? Shame......I hope they have some GRAND PLANS in the next 5 or so years...they have some "making up" to do IMHO.

M

 

[thetrailboss]

I express the same POV as Bob R: for the New England/NY Market, there ARE enough diehards for one, maybe two, resorts to have early and late season skiing.

But as I said earlier in this thread, and Jim has pointed out, POWDR has something else in mind (which really sucks). As pointed out, they want to define their product so that it is like Okemo and Stratton (lots of real estate...). I think that NE has enough of "those" kinds of mountains, but SP Lands put $83 mill or so down thinks otherwise...

We have to somehow deal with this change in the Killington product...if there even is a change. As has been said, this is meant to be a "worst-case" scenario for season length. I guess we have to wait and see...which is not comforting to those who live on Killington or own property there. That "Killington Product" may not exist anymore....much to our chagrin.

So who is going to fill the early season/late season void? :wink:

 

[JimG.]

Jim you may very well have a different view if you bought property at the K years ago and bought it based on season length (which likely a skier like you would've done).

M

UNDOUBTEDLY and I have said so here and in other threads. I don't write these things to thumb my nose at those folks like you. I'm looking at the rational for their business plan only.

All I'm really saying is that you cannot say they will fail because the plan as it looks like it will play out doesn't benefit everyone/anyone who posts here. We hear only one side of the story here, from the hardcore skiers who own or who will ski until there is no snow, and after that if the grass is still wet.

The skier universe is an awful lot bigger than that.

 

[Vortex]

Jim "Your kind of making my point" June is Done for lift serviced. Mid or early may can work. April 13th just makes no sense to me. Early may cloisng is my version of living in today's ski world.

Skidog is correct. I bougth at Loon when they opend like Nov 10 and would stay open a little later if the snow allowed. Aw I left. If I was a property owner I would be insane right know. I would add insult to injury (like the Crazy K guy) I would spend less at the mountain to show my displeasure.
If the opposite happened I would spend more money later. I did that this year. I know those who made turns with me late made the same effort to do so.

 

[SkiDog]

We also very easily have forgotten that the company PRE ASC was able to remain profitable even WITH the extended season....Were they doing something different??? Probably yes...and that different was not paying a ton of execs huge salaries and putting that money where it was supposed to go..THE MOUNTAIN..

M

 

[Greg]

Most people probably also feel this way. What I think will be interesting is to see if any other ski areas attempt to fill this void.

Nobody has yet.

Has any ski area other than Killington tried to stay open to Memorial day in the past 20 years? Which only lends more creedence to the thought it's not worth it for them to do so.

So who is going to fill the early season/late season void? :wink:

Jim - no nobody has yet, but the state of the Northeast ski industry is far different going into this season, probably more than any other since Killington first shortened the season length. Powdr/SP, Peak, and Boyne are new players (well not Peak, but you get the point). Not saying anyone is going to aim for Memorial Day, but early May? Absolutely! I still think we should watch what Peak does very carefully. They have already stated that Attitash will not set a closing date. They've been very aggressive with promoting the snowmaking upgrades to both Snow and Attitash. They came right out of the gate offering very competitive season pass prices that former A41 pass holders could easily get behind.

I keep thinking back to our day at Mount Snow last November, Jim. The fact they downloaded on the Canyon quad to give us that loop up top on Upper Canyon, River Run and Chute was very much appreciated. I think they could do that loop again as an early season option, blow the snot out of it with snowmaking throughout the season, and also keep it open for late season. Downloading is key for early/late season and Snow has the lift infrastructure to do it. They certainly could make the end of April if they tried. I understand they are more latitude and altitude deficient when compared to Killington, but under the right conditions, I think they can still beat out Killington on both ends. This validates their pass price as an even better value, creates a buzz, and fills the void left by Killington. Based on what I've seen from Peak Resorts so far, I wouldn't put at least trying this past them.

Don't underestimate Win and company as well. Let's remember, they stayed open until May 5 this year. Not sure they have the altitude advantage on Stein's to stay open that late if they didn't get the April snowfalls this year, but you never know. And down the road once some development happens at Mount Ellen, I can see F.I.S (with downloading on the GMX) easily becoming the new Superstar.

 

[JimG.]

Jim "Your kind of making my point" June is Done for lift serviced. Mid or early may can work. April 13th just makes no sense to me. Early may cloisng is my version of living in today's ski world.

Skidog is correct. I bougth at Loon when they opend like Nov 10 and would stay open a little later if the snow allowed. Aw I left. If I was a property owner I would be insane right know. I would add insult to injury (like the Crazy K guy) I would spend less at the mountain to show my displeasure.
If the opposite happened I would spend more money later. I did that this year. I know those who made turns with me late made the same effort to do so.

Forget about the freak snow this past April...none of the hills that stayed open late did so according to a plan...it was on the fly.

In a "normal" season, do you realize that many ski areas are done well before 4/13? Alot of more southerly skiers consider 4/1 late season.

Again Bob, we the posters on AZ are not the "normal" skier. And the new owners of K don't care too much about us.

I believe in underpromise/overdeliever. Maybe POWDR will keep K open if conditions warrant. We don't know. But what are the odds of that happening if all the late season skiers defect because they are pissed off? Wouldn't that only bolster POWDR's argument that there aren't enough skiers to stay open profitably?

Does the "screw them if they won't run the place the way I want" play right into their hands?

 

[threecy]

It'd be interesting to see what people would think if K-Mart stayed open until June and charged full price.

 

[JimG.]

Jim - no nobody has yet, but the state of the Northeast ski industry is far different going into this season, probably more than any other since Killington first shortened the season length. Powdr/SP, Peak, and Boyne are new players (well not Peak, but you get the point). Not saying anyone is going to aim for Memorial Day, but early May? Absolutely! I still think we should watch what Peak does very carefully. They have already stated that Attitash will not set a closing date. They've been very aggressive with promoting the snowmaking upgrades to both Snow and Attitash. They came right out of the gate offering very competitive season pass prices that former A41 pass holders could easily get behind.

I keep thinking back to our day at Mount Snow last November, Jim. The fact they downloaded on the Canyon quad to give us that loop up top on Upper Canyon, River Run and Chute was very much appreciated. I think they could do that loop again as an early season option, blow the snot out of it with snowmaking throughout the season, and also keep it open for late season. Downloading is key for early/late season and Snow has the lift infrastructure to do it. They certainly could make the end of April if they tried. I understand they are more latitude and altitude deficient when compared to Killington, but under the right conditions, I think they can still beat out Killington on both ends. This validates their pass price as an even better value, creates a buzz, and fills the void left by Killington. Based on what I've seen from Peak Resorts so far, I wouldn't put at least trying this past them.

Don't underestimate Win and company as well. Let's remember, they stayed open until May 5 this year. Not sure they have the altitude advantage on Stein's to stay open that late if they didn't get the April snowfalls this year, but you never know. And down the road once some development happens at Mount Ellen, I can see F.I.S (with downloading on the GMX) easily becoming the new Superstar.

Same disconnect...early May is not late season. It's 2 weeks extra.

Early June is late season and that's been gone for years.

 

[JimG.]

It'd be interesting to see what people would think if K-Mart stayed open until June and charged full price.

Indeed, good point.

I'll go on record now...I would not hesitate if they gave me lift served on Superstar top to bottom until June 1.
They can even groom half of it if they want to.

 

[Vortex]

I'm waiting on Boyne. I have the feeling they have a competive juices. I'm not sure on how long the season will go, but I have a feeling impovements will be made.

Peaks is speaking with actions. So is K. I would take Peaks actions.

My point is I really think someone will step up. Wildcat, K(to me early May was repectable) and Sugarbush did last year. 3 new big players. Two have spoken one I'm waiting on Boyne with good anticipation. It obvious some K folk have move to Mt snow. Just like somem booth creek people have moved on as well.

edit just saw you post Jim. We will see. New players new competion. Wilcat still proved you can stay open and make a profit.

 

[Greg]

Same disconnect...early May is not late season. It's 2 weeks extra.

Early June is late season and that's been gone for years.

Early May or early June is a moot point if you're the only ski area offering lift-serviced...

 

[2knees]

It'd be interesting to see what people would think if K-Mart stayed open until June and charged full price.

I'd pay 72 bucks to ski on memorial day on one trail in a heartbeat.

I suspect that wouldnt be the overwhelming opinion though.

I wonder what people would be saying if powdr had raised the pass prices to pre A41 levels and adjusted also for inflation. something along the lines of 1200 bucks or so but also gave us skiing till mid may.