Trailboss' Biggest Winners and Losers of 2009-2010

[thetrailboss]

i skied killington almost 50 days this year and i got my moneys worth.
one of the earliest to open and latest to close
blew a ton of snow all year (didnt get much natural from january to mid feb)
seeded bumps on many different trails
blew snow on the fiddle for the first time in years
eased up on the bmmc
less grooming overall

if getting a new logo and closing a week earlier than the closing date are the biggest complaints of the year, than id say it was a good season

You've missed a lot of discussion here.

 

[thetrailboss]

I can't argue with your opinion about wanting one more weekend, but I will with your statement about "Not a great snowmaking year". I think our team did the best job since we have owned Sugarbush, and I have heard that from many, many of our guests. Maybe next year we will go into May again.

The crew did a good job, but most of the problems were from issues that could not be controlled. Losing most of November for snowmaking really hurt. Add the two blow-outs and that cost time. I heard from many visitors the same comment, "man, there's not much snow." SB did the best it could with what it had from mother nature, which was not nice.

 

[drjeff]

They were not the earliest to open nor the latest to close. You've missed a lot of discussion here.

TB, I do believe that he said ONE OF the earliest to open/latest to close, not THE earliest to open/latest to close

 

[frankm938]

The crew did a good job, but most of the problems were from issues that could not be controlled. Losing most of November for snowmaking really hurt. Add the two blow-outs and that cost time. I heard from many visitors the same comment, "man, there's not much snow." SB did the best it could with what it had from mother nature, which was not nice.

not much snow?... and they got an indifferent grade?
dont recall people complaining about lack of snow at K, if so then i would think they should get a biggest loser grade. but new logo seems like a silly reason.

how many days did you ski killington last season to come up with your evaluation?

 

[riverc0il]

What K's biggest defenders on AZ don't seem to realize is that perception is reality and that even if K did a lot of things right, people remember more vividly when you over promise and under deliver. Ultimately, I don't think the biggest winners and losers of the season can be tabulated in two columns marked pros and cons but rather as the overall feeling of the customer base. TBs winners (and the suggested additions) are all areas that had a "buzz" this season. K did not have any buzz that I noticed, some okay reports, and a few slams (most notably from those that are not K regulars and not the usual complainers).

 

[AdironRider]

Ive been saying for years that Sugarbush is behind the times on snowmaking.

Win, its been pretty clear you've been more concerned with the base village than snowmaking upgrades. A lot of other New England resorts have been spending serious dough in that department in recent history. Yet you continue to pump money into real estate and base area development. The times they are a changin'

 

[mondeo]

What K's biggest defenders on AZ don't seem to realize is that perception is reality and that even if K did a lot of things right, people remember more vividly when you over promise and under deliver. Ultimately, I don't think the biggest winners and losers of the season can be tabulated in two columns marked pros and cons but rather as the overall feeling of the customer base. TBs winners (and the suggested additions) are all areas that had a "buzz" this season. K did not have any buzz that I noticed, some okay reports, and a few slams (most notably from those that are not K regulars and not the usual complainers).

I thought there was really good buzz up until a few weeks ago. More bumps. More snowmaking. Better grooming. Loosened up on BMMC. All year, it was a feeling of "They may finally be getting it." There was hope. Cautious hope, but hope. I honestly can't remember a single slam that wasn't from a typical complainer.

 

[riverc0il]

I thought there was really good buzz up until a few weeks ago. More bumps. More snowmaking. Better grooming. Loosened up on BMMC. All year, it was a feeling of "They may finally be getting it." There was hope. Cautious hope, but hope. I honestly can't remember a single slam that wasn't from a typical complainer.

BMM certainly was not impressed with the bump selection on his day there. I recall a few reports not happy with the bump situation.

My report one week prior to closing was generally positive but I specifically threw down the gauntlet by answering my "Is the Beast back?" question by suggesting it would be determined by how they ended the season.

 

[mondeo]

BMM certainly was not impressed with the bump selection on his day there. I recall a few reports not happy with the bump situation.

My report one week prior to closing was generally positive but I specifically threw down the gauntlet by answering my "Is the Beast back?" question by suggesting it would be determined by how they ended the season.

BMM is one of the usual complainers, and on top of that came at the end of the dry spell. Anywhere in the East at that point, if it wasn't freshly manmade, it was hardpack. I've been there in the past on the same day as him, where he reports crappy or non-existent bumps, and have no clue where he was skiing to avoid the goodness. I've never heard him say anything about Killington that wasn't essentially "My home mountain does it better." Only other complainer I remember was the Dis. Who was complaining about the lack of bumps during the period of time that he decided not to ski, typically drawing a silent "WTF?" from me. Half of his "reports" were from weekends I was having a blast.

 

[deadheadskier]

I'm not a K skier. I've read several reports that the mountain was much improved over last year. What has stuck with me more though is that their bark is still much louder than their bike. Maybe it's just me, but honest marketing matters. IMHO K's number one focus moving forward should be establishing an 'honest' image; not a 'beastly' one.

 

[catskills]

The Catskills had some awesome snow conditions this season. The typical cold, snow, thaw, rain cycle rarely happened this season, which produced much better quality snow overall. Yes the Catskill had a late start but they also got a 60 inch snow dump.

I believe PA, NJ, MD,VA, and West VA all had a great year.

 

[riverc0il]

BMM is one of the usual complainers, and on top of that came at the end of the dry spell. Anywhere in the East at that point, if it wasn't freshly manmade, it was hardpack. I've been there in the past on the same day as him, where he reports crappy or non-existent bumps, and have no clue where he was skiing to avoid the goodness. I've never heard him say anything about Killington that wasn't essentially "My home mountain does it better." Only other complainer I remember was the Dis. Who was complaining about the lack of bumps during the period of time that he decided not to ski, typically drawing a silent "WTF?" from me. Half of his "reports" were from weekends I was having a blast.

Are we talking about the same poster? I only saw one, (maybe two?) K report from BMM all season. And while BMM is a total Sugarbush homer, I think he can be objective about bumps. The guy loves bumps more than he loves the Bush. When I talk about the usual complainers, I am talking about all the whinny pass holders.

 

[thetrailboss]

BMM is one of the usual complainers, and on top of that came at the end of the dry spell. Anywhere in the East at that point, if it wasn't freshly manmade, it was hardpack. I've been there in the past on the same day as him, where he reports crappy or non-existent bumps, and have no clue where he was skiing to avoid the goodness. I've never heard him say anything about Killington that wasn't essentially "My home mountain does it better." Only other complainer I remember was the Dis. Who was complaining about the lack of bumps during the period of time that he decided not to ski, typically drawing a silent "WTF?" from me. Half of his "reports" were from weekends I was having a blast.

I too disagree with that comment about BMM. He runs Mogulskiing.net and just completed a resort management program. He is in the business. He rarely is negative. I thought his report was frank and honest.

 

[win]

Ive been saying for years that Sugarbush is behind the times on snowmaking.

Win, its been pretty clear you've been more concerned with the base village than snowmaking upgrades. A lot of other New England resorts have been spending serious dough in that department in recent history. Yet you continue to pump money into real estate and base area development. The times they are a changin'

You have your fact wrong on this. They are not mutually exclusive. and we are spending each year on snowmaking upgrades. Not everything is visible to guests, but new nozzles like those on Spring Fling are. Actual snowfall this year was 183" vs last year 283". While we were not the last to close in VT this year, we did stay open until our scheduled closing date of Sunday April 18th. I believe we got the Bronze.

 

[frankm938]

What K's biggest defenders on AZ don't seem to realize is that perception is reality and that even if K did a lot of things right, people remember more vividly when you over promise and under deliver. Ultimately, I don't think the biggest winners and losers of the season can be tabulated in two columns marked pros and cons but rather as the overall feeling of the customer base. TBs winners (and the suggested additions) are all areas that had a "buzz" this season. K did not have any buzz that I noticed, some okay reports, and a few slams (most notably from those that are not K regulars and not the usual complainers).

well i guess im a K defender (even though i have posted my gripes with the place in the past) because i think giving an entire season a failure for things like the logo, "buzz" and overall feeling you get from reading a few trip reports vs. actually skiing a place is a little foolish. the people that only remember the last 2 weeks of the season are the people that were only going to ski the last 2 weeks and werent there mid season to see that skiing was very good for most of the season.
i dont need to love the owners/management of a mtn to enjoy the place. as long as they blow snow (and K blew a ton of it this year) than im happy with how the place is run because nothing else will affect your ski day more than snow.
the owners/management of sundown are the nicest, most available of any mtn ive been to, but i wouldnt want to drive 3 hours to ski it every wknd. ill take terrain, snowmaking, bumps, trees and all the "lies" that go with it

 

[thetrailboss]

well i guess im a K defender (even though i have posted my gripes with the place in the past) because i think giving an entire season a failure for things like the logo, "buzz" and overall feeling you get from reading a few trip reports vs. actually skiing a place is a little foolish. the people that only remember the last 2 weeks of the season are the people that were only going to ski the last 2 weeks and werent there mid season to see that skiing was very good for most of the season.
i dont need to love the owners/management of a mtn to enjoy the place. as long as they blow snow (and K blew a ton of it this year) than im happy with how the place is run because nothing else will affect your ski day more than snow.
the owners/management of sundown are the nicest, most available of any mtn ive been to, but i wouldnt want to drive 3 hours to ski it every wknd. ill take terrain, snowmaking, bumps, trees and all the "lies" that go with it

The issue is that you are coming at Killington from another level than I am. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you are their new market because you are relatively new there and don't remember the "old" Killington. The logo and branding is relevant because most folks in here, including me, remember the "old" Killington, which was "open first, close last." Many folks bought property and made decisions based on that model. Now that is different and people are upset. It's also relevant because Killington, in rebranding itself, was trying to get back to their roots, which was, "early open, late close" and they made some very strong statements (some say promises) to stay open to May 2nd and sold passes on that.

This is not people reflecting on the last two weeks or on just a logo...it is looking at a larger picture and on a more abstract level than the ski conditions during one set of time. My comments reflect not just my experience, but my own observations of what people said and thought of the area and a summary of this season. It's not meant to be :flame: , but is my own opinion.

 

[AdironRider]

You have your fact wrong on this. They are not mutually exclusive. and we are spending each year on snowmaking upgrades. Not everything is visible to guests, but new nozzles like those on Spring Fling are. Actual snowfall this year was 183" vs last year 283". While we were not the last to close in VT this year, we did stay open until our scheduled closing date of Sunday April 18th. I believe we got the Bronze.

How much have you spent on each exclusive project in the last three years? Ive yet to hear one person comment on your immense snowmaking prowess. Ive yet to see it myself (although I havent been there in two years, I will admit). Im not saying your season is short, its not. But you are falling behind other New England resorts in terms of snowmaking capacity. Telling me closing dates and total natural snowfall is not going to convince me otherwise. Snowmaking to me shows more in how you open up terrain, and recover after bad weather. You are not the best at this, and it shows.

 

[HowieT2]

How much have you spent on each exclusive project in the last three years? Ive yet to hear one person comment on your immense snowmaking prowess. Ive yet to see it myself (although I havent been there in two years, I will admit). Im not saying your season is short, its not. But you are falling behind other New England resorts in terms of snowmaking capacity. Telling me closing dates and total natural snowfall is not going to convince me otherwise. Snowmaking to me shows more in how you open up terrain, and recover after bad weather. You are not the best at this, and it shows.

While I don't disagree with your point about snowmaking capacity, the fact of the matter is that the snow was consistently good all year. I skied about 35 days at SB this season including every weekend until close The mtn was 100% open almost all year. A lot of that had to do with the lack of a serious thaw, but given the paucity of natural snow, they did as good a job of snow making as conditions permitted. Of course the beginning of the season was delayed by warm temperatures and it ended prematurely but there was 'nothing much they could do about that and neither had anything to do with snow making capacity or resources. In terms of strategy, they made snow on the North Lynx area before moving over to Steins to build the base for spring. I think this was a great move and was well received.

 

[frankm938]

The issue is that you are coming at Killington from another level than I am. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you are their new market because you are relatively new there and don't remember the "old" Killington. The logo and branding is relevant because most folks in here, including me, remember the "old" Killington, which was "open first, close last." Many folks bought property and made decisions based on that model. Now that is different and people are upset. It's also relevant because Killington, in rebranding itself, was trying to get back to their roots, which was, "early open, late close" and they made some very strong statements (some say promises) to stay open to May 2nd and sold passes on that.

This is not people reflecting on the last two weeks or on just a logo...it is looking at a larger picture and on a more abstract level than the ski conditions during one set of time. My comments reflect not just my experience, but my own observations of what people said and thought of the area and a summary of this season. It's not meant to be :flame: , but is my own opinion.

no, ive been skiing killington since i was 10 when by older brothers used to take me on day trips with them. im 38 now, so by my math that is about 28 years of skiing K.
ive been there as a day tripper, a share house member and now as a home owner so i do remember the "old" killington.
ownership, and how they run things has changed a few times over the years, but for the most part the mountain hasnt. OL is still OL, the fiddle is still the fiddle ect...
and im there because of the mtn, not who owns it.
if they groom too much, ill complain. if they dont blow enough snow, ill complain
and ill be the first one to give them a failing grade.
but i just dont care about logos, "buzz", and all the other shit that doesnt matter when im skiing.
it seems to me that closing a week early bothered the non pass holders more than the pass holders (maybe because most killington regulars dont like superstar anyway)
id like to see outer limits as the late season skiing spot, esp. if they are gonna close end of april/early may

 

[thetrailboss]

no, ive been skiing killington since i was 10 when by older brothers used to take me on day trips with them. im 38 now, so by my math that is about 28 years of skiing K.
ive been there as a day tripper, a share house member and now as a home owner so i do remember the "old" killington.
ownership, and how they run things has changed a few times over the years, but for the most part the mountain hasnt. OL is still OL, the fiddle is still the fiddle ect...
and im there because of the mtn, not who owns it.
if they groom too much, ill complain. if they dont blow enough snow, ill complain
and ill be the first one to give them a failing grade.
but i just dont care about logos, "buzz", and all the other shit that doesnt matter when im skiing.
it seems to me that closing a week early bothered the non pass holders more than the pass holders (maybe because most killington regulars dont like superstar anyway)
id like to see outer limits as the late season skiing spot, esp. if they are gonna close end of april/early may

OK, well then you know that people are really upset because Killington used to close in June and now closes in April. That's more than a week...and I think that is a good reason to be upset. I also think that you're probably the only homeowner I know at Killington who is not upset at the short season.