VAIL SUCKS

[Cobbold]

Vail does not own 10,000+ beds in Vail Village, they own 350 beds in Vail Village! They also don't own dozens of restaurants in Vail. Beaver Creek has just 120 vail owned beds.

I believe vail resorts has around 5000 hotel rooms that either they own or manage, marriot chain I think has 1.5 million, my guess at any one time Marriott probably cant account for 5000 rooms, but in the ski industry 5k is a lot, 5k number from vails 10k/10Q filings

 

[jimmywilson69]

That is my worry, and should be Vail's - supporting new entrants into the sport. In the NE I figure the Indy's will fill the gap. But who is the reasonably priced Indy in SE PA?

BTW, I grew up skiing Charnita (now Liberty), Roundtop and Blue Knob.

Blue Knob is such a diamond in the rough. It's a shame that it's so isolated.

When the snow is good at Blue Knob it's a very good place. Has some really good steeps and trees. When it's not it's really bad. Went to college in Johnstown so I've skied that place in all kinds of conditions. Haven't been back in 20+ years. Going to try ad change that this year if the snow is good.

It's just baffling Vail can't see the value in entry level skiers on a budget.

 

[Harvey]

That is my worry, and should be Vail's - supporting new entrants into the sport.

Seems like Vail is leaving the longterm to the little guys. Hope the little guys make it.

 

[KustyTheKlown]

just looked at a blue knob trail map. looks funky! upside down ski areas are neat.

 

[deadheadskier]

A comment on the Northeast being feeder hills for Vail. I asked a friend who worked in marketing for Vail what percentage of Northeast skiers also use their Epic Pass out west. The number is in the single digits. Granted, not a lot of years of data and two not so normal ones in a row.

But let's say it builds to 15%. Don't they have to be cautious not to piss off 85% of that pass market that uses their New England areas exclusively? I guess they're gambling on price and convenience always winning enough people over.

 

[ThatGuy]

just looked at a blue knob trail map. looks funky! upside down ski areas are neat.

I wouldn’t like having to ride the chairlift up to end my day, but the layouts are interesting.

 

[cdskier]

A comment on the Northeast being feeder hills for Vail. I asked a friend who worked in marketing for Vail what percentage of Northeast skiers also use their Epic Pass out west. The number is in the single digits. Granted, not a lot of years of data and two not so normal ones in a row.

But let's say it builds to 15%. Don't they have to be cautious not to piss off 85% of that pass market that uses their New England areas exclusively? I guess they're gambling on price and convenience always winning enough people over.

Those numbers don't surprise me one bit. As much as people love to tout how great it is to have so many areas on a single pass...the fact is many people simply use it as a season pass to access their home resort or at best use it to access several resorts all in the same region. Traveling to different regions just is a different dynamic that doesn't work out for the majority of your typical skiers.

 

[ss20]

I believe vail resorts has around 5000 hotel rooms that either they own or manage, marriot chain I think has 1.5 million, my guess at any one time Marriott probably cant account for 5000 rooms, but in the ski industry 5k is a lot, 5k number from vails 10k/10Q filings

Exactly. Okemo is probably the Eastern resort with the most beds owned by the mountain and it's not much in comparison.

Also...what percentage of Eastern skiers are coming up for a day or a weekend with their own car and just using their Epic pass and buying a burger. Compared to the Western destination resorts where it's on-mountain/near-mountain lodging, 3 meals a day, ski school for the kids, rentals... the whole package.

If the East Coast "fit" Vail's model they would've snapped up a resort 15 years ago when ASC collapsed.

 

[cdskier]

Exactly. Okemo is probably the Eastern resort with the most beds owned by the mountain and it's not much in comparison.

Also...what percentage of Eastern skiers are coming up for a day or a weekend with their own car and just using their Epic pass and buying a burger. Compared to the Western destination resorts where it's on-mountain/near-mountain lodging, 3 meals a day, ski school for the kids, rentals... the whole package.

If the East Coast "fit" Vail's model they would've snapped up a resort 15 years ago when ASC collapsed.

Did Vail even have a "model" 15 years ago? They owned 4 resorts at the time (Vail, Beaver Creek, Keystone, Breck) and then purchased Heavenly from ASC when ASC was starting to crumble. They didn't come up with Epic pass yet at that time. Would they have had the money to buy any eastern resorts back then even if they wanted to? Expanding that quickly into the eastern market after watching ASC fall so quickly probably would not have been a smart move for VR at the time.

I still think you're over-estimating how much Vail generates from non-mountain activities in Vail/Beaver Creek.

That 5000 (actually should be 5500) number mentioned above includes ALL the lodging properties they own or manage across resorts in all regions...

Our Lodging segment includes owned and managed lodging properties, including those under our luxury hotel management company, RockResorts;
managed condominium units which are in and around our mountain resorts in Colorado, Lake Tahoe, Utah, Vermont, New York and British Columbia,
Canada; two NPS concessionaire properties in and near Grand Teton National Park in Wyoming.

 

[PAabe]

In PA most of the non-Vail places are still pretty reasonably priced imo. Bear Creek, Montage, Spring are downright cheap. Laurel, Shawnee, Tussey, Shawnee, Big Bear pretty inexpensive. Blue has pretty good group rates, night, weekday rates, discounts in advance but they charge through the nose on busy weekends. The Vail places are expensive all the time, even for weekday night tickets, $80 to night ski a weeknight at Roundtop, no way.

Ski Roundtop is actually a really nice hill for where it is geographically located. Irving Naylor didn't like having to drive to Vermont to ski and he scouted out the single tallest and steepest hill in the whole county to build the place. It is one of the biggest feeling 600ft hills you'll ski. Steepest headwalls in the state since Montage regraded white lightning. Seperated beginner area, great lesson program, winding trails, narrow trails, wide trails, bump trails, good park features, classic lodge, lift and trail system spreads everyone out well, people are friendly. They also used to do a surprisingly good job in snowmaking product as well as getting it made early, late, and throughout the season in very marginal conditions considering the southernly and low elevation location (Vail has not been as aggressive surprise surprise).

Liberty was also under Naylor (Snow Time) and they took over Whitetail from the initial Japanese investors after some gas crises (Naylor bought a gas station and guaranteed skiers a fill up) and snow issues (they built Whitetail facing south! in southern PA). I have heard that all 3 were highly profitable when Naylor sold them several years ago. Apparently he was kind of picky about who he sold it to and decided on Peaks but sadly it has now ended up with Vail.

Most people I know ski/board at Roundtop, Bear Creek, or the Poconos. Few people make the trek up north and even fewer make the rare trek out west.
Needless to say, the families, dirtbags, school clubs, and night skiers no longer ski at Roundtop as much.

 

[Ski2LiveLive2Ski]

Roundtop is real nice for its size and def feels like it has a locals party going on, though if I lived near there I'd still drive to Whitetail for the bigger vertical and challenge (other than those couple short headwalls) most times I wanted to ski more than a couple hours.

Liberty bored me even in beautiful fresh snow conditions and I will not return. Felt like every run should be green and lifts were interminable.

 

[PAabe]

I actually have never made it to whitetail - ski Roundtop is the closest area to me, but I can get to anywhere in the poconos faster than whitetail which has a reputation for being very crowded and a little pricier than the poconos. If I ever get a snowtime/epic pass I'll definitely check it out though. Used to get the snowtime Advantage card when they did that, also did their ski club when I was a kid, and made it over to Liberty but never the whole way out to Whitetail. We were unimpressed by Liberty's terrain and how crazy crowded it was, this was years ago, I can only image what it's like under epic.

 

[jimmywilson69]

you wouldn't drive to whitetail, not on the weekend anyways. that place has been way over crowded pre-vail I can only imagine what its like now. The last time I was there on a Sunday I did 8 runs in 4 hours. That was easily 8 years ago. The snow is often shit because it faces southeast. Even though you get nearly 1000 vert, the blues all ski exactly the same (think Okemo), I will say that the expert runs are nice with some longer sustained pitch. In the Spring the expert bump run under the chair is pretty sweet. But Again the crowds. I would only ever ski longer than a few hours there mainly because it was nearly a 2 hour drive. That's my perspective from someone who lives 4 miles from Roundtop though. And yes no one skis more than 3 hours at Roundtop. On the weekends in the winter there is often more time spent drinking beer in the parking lot than actually skiing, especially if its a nice day out. Think the beach A-Basin, but with obviously much tamer skiing and scenery

 

[PAabe]

Hey roundtop has cool scenery - Three Mile Island, radio towers, power lines, the beautiful Harrisburg skyline lol... the farms and the Susquehanna are nice enough anyway if not exactly alpine

 

[Ski2LiveLive2Ski]

you wouldn't drive to whitetail, not on the weekend anyways. that place has been way over crowded pre-vail I can only imagine what its like now. The last time I was there on a Sunday I did 8 runs in 4 hours. That was easily 8 years ago. The snow is often shit because it faces southeast. Even though you get nearly 1000 vert, the blues all ski exactly the same (think Okemo), I will say that the expert runs are nice with some longer sustained pitch. In the Spring the expert bump run under the chair is pretty sweet. But Again the crowds. I would only ever ski longer than a few hours there mainly because it was nearly a 2 hour drive. That's my perspective from someone who lives 4 miles from Roundtop though. And yes no one skis more than 3 hours at Roundtop. On the weekends in the winter there is often more time spent drinking beer in the parking lot than actually skiing, especially if its a nice day out. Think the beach A-Basin, but with obviously much tamer skiing and scenery

I've had several great days at Whitetail when I chose it over Hunter - which is closer to me - either because a storm was targeting the Whitetail area or because it was gonna be like -5 at Hunter and 25 at Whitetail. Love their Exhibition bump run that softens up nicely in afternoon.

 

[jimmywilson69]

I keep saying I am going to blow off work and ski down there mid-week, but I guess it comes down to being too lazy to drive 1:45 as opposed to 7 minutes

 

[ericfromMA/NH/VT]

anyone been to Mt snow or Okemo yet? How is it out there? I'm trying to decide if the drive is worth it for what they have open. Sunapee opened today and is 50 minutes from my house but 1 run open basically. Mt snow or Okemo have a few more trial but are 2 hrs and 2.5 hrs away from my house.

heading somewhere tomorrow. at least I'll be skiing!

thanks!

 

[jaytrem]

just looked at a blue knob trail map. looks funky! upside down ski areas are neat.

Yeah, super cool place. Finally got there last year. Kept waiting for the right conditions, it took a while.

 

[jaytrem]

anyone been to Mt snow or Okemo yet? How is it out there? I'm trying to decide if the drive is worth it for what they have open. Sunapee opened today and is 50 minutes from my house but 1 run open basically. Mt snow or Okemo have a few more trial but are 2 hrs and 2.5 hrs away from my house.

heading somewhere tomorrow. at least I'll be skiing!

thanks!

Mt Snow made a lots of snow on a bunch of trail. So far they haven't opened many of them though and the only one they specifically mentioned opening tomorrow is on the lower half of Carinthia. Lousy communication, so who knows what the weekend will bring. Could have 4 trails open or could have 9 or 10. One thing for sure though, VAIL SUCKS!

 

[spiderpig]

Exactly. Okemo is probably the Eastern resort with the most beds owned by the mountain and it's not much in comparison.

Also...what percentage of Eastern skiers are coming up for a day or a weekend with their own car and just using their Epic pass and buying a burger. Compared to the Western destination resorts where it's on-mountain/near-mountain lodging, 3 meals a day, ski school for the kids, rentals... the whole package.

If the East Coast "fit" Vail's model they would've snapped up a resort 15 years ago when ASC collapsed.

I think the only beds they own at Okemo are the ones they couldn't sell since the time the new developments were built. They do manage the rentals of plenty of them for a good percentage though.