VAIL SUCKS

[ss20]

Pay what it takes to fully staff the lifts. Lifty labor is such a miniscule cost center for ski resorts. Even though these are low skill jobs, people don't want to stand outside doing a mundane task for 8 hours a day.

If Vail was offering $15-20/HR for lifty jobs, they'd be all set. They probably pay $12 at best

I don't understand your logic of lifties being a low cost center for ski resorts. If you're running 10 lifts that's at a bare minimum 30 people just to run the lifts. Now add in some ticket checkers and a couple supervisors/maintenance guys. Let's say now you're at 40 people....that's not a small amount for any mountain for a single department on the clock at one time.

Also $15/hr is too much for a lifty job, in my humblest of opinions. Minimum is too low though, I will agree with that. If it was a dollar more than minimum and the season pass was worth $1500 they'd be lining up for applications.

 

[Edd]

Eh, a good lifty seems worth $15/hour to me. Particularly on a busy lift that requires some line management and people skills. Also, a lifty that’s on point and paying attention can avoid accidents/lawsuits.

 

[deadheadskier]

I don't understand your logic of lifties being a low cost center for ski resorts. If you're running 10 lifts that's at a bare minimum 30 people just to run the lifts. Now add in some ticket checkers and a couple supervisors/maintenance guys. Let's say now you're at 40 people....that's not a small amount for any mountain for a single department on the clock at one time.

Also $15/hr is too much for a lifty job, in my humblest of opinions. Minimum is too low though, I will agree with that. If it was a dollar more than minimum and the season pass was worth $1500 they'd be lining up for applications.

Look at it on a per lifty cost. $15/hr = $120 a day. That's $4 more than the cost of a day ticket to Mt Snow. So basically one day visitor who buys a ticket and a hot cocoa covers the cost of one lifty. Mt Snow probably sells a couple thousand day tickets a weekend ski day.

And from a Macro Economics perspective, look at the rents in ski towns. People can't afford to live in most ski towns on less than $15/hr. So, you either rely on cheap foreign labor, cramped in employee housing or you offer wages that can support someone living there. The lack of foreign labor this year exposes the problem of ski areas paying too little to properly staff themselves.

 

[snoseek]

The cheap pass prices are artificially low on the backs of underpaid staff. Pay more or help out with housing and the problem goes away. Cost of doing business.

Squaw was advertising for lifties on the local radio a few years back at 20 per hour after all the foreign labor left on a good snow year

 

[machski]

I don't know the exact numbers but something along the lines of $750 nh w/ a dozen blackouts, $1k nh unlimited, $1500 unlimited vail across the country sounds about right. Way too many bozos today.

Once you get to a 4 figure pass price, the occasional skier will not buy in. At that point, the Epic and Ikon models implode as they are built with the enticement to the occasional skier to buy one and travel for their one or two ski trips a year. If pass prices get raised substantially, both will have to create a new model in addition that will speak to the volumes of those skiers/riders. Most that are buying these passes are not like those of us on this board that will buy passes at those price levels.

 

[RichT]

I don't understand your logic of lifties being a low cost center for ski resorts. If you're running 10 lifts that's at a bare minimum 30 people just to run the lifts. Now add in some ticket checkers and a couple supervisors/maintenance guys. Let's say now you're at 40 people....that's not a small amount for any mountain for a single department on the clock at one time.

Also $15/hr is too much for a lifty job, in my humblest of opinions. Minimum is too low though, I will agree with that. If it was a dollar more than minimum and the season pass was worth $1500 they'd be lining up for applications.

I know a couple of the employees at Hunter, that DON'T ski. They work 6 days a week and would rather not be there on their day off. Given a choice of more money and no pass they'd take to cash. The job fair they had last week netted Vail 4(?) new hires. Pay them more, gve the passes to the patrollers.

 

[njdiver85]

When Vail looks back at this season, they will say . . . the Northeast had insanely good snow conditions in January and February. I haven't seen a shred of ice at Mount Snow in 3 weeks - I've never been able to say that in my 9 years here! Combine amazing conditions with reduced lift capacity due to Covid, pent up demand to ski due to crappy start to season, and inability of families to fly west and "spread out" to other resorts and you get . . . massive lines in the NE. This will not be a call to change the pass price structure all that much. They will have their marketing department working overtime to create the stoke and get people excited for next season, and I really don't think they will loose that many to Ikon.

 

[deadheadskier]

When Vail looks back at this season, they will say . . . the Northeast had insanely good snow conditions in January and February. I haven't seen a shred of ice at Mount Snow in 3 weeks - I've never been able to say that in my 9 years here! Combine amazing conditions with reduced lift capacity due to Covid, pent up demand to ski due to crappy start to season, and inability of families to fly west and "spread out" to other resorts and you get . . . massive lines in the NE. This will not be a call to change the pass price structure all that much. They will have their marketing department working overtime to create the stoke and get people excited for next season, and I really don't think they will loose that many to Ikon.

I'll be interested to see what their pass sales are like next season. Maybe the VT market retains much of their business, but I know many people in NH who are moving on to Cannon or elsewhere with how bad they botched the product in NH this season. Of the four NH Epic areas, only Crotched has performed any where near as good under Vail as they did under Peak. Pandemic or not.

To get those skiers back, Vail will need to do a helluva lot better job making snow in NH and restore the season length at Wildcat. I don't see that happening

 

[catskillman]

Look at it on a per lifty cost. $15/hr = $120 a day. That's $4 more than the cost of a day ticket to Mt Snow. So basically one day visitor who buys a ticket and a hot cocoa covers the cost of one lifty. Mt Snow probably sells a couple thousand day tickets a weekend ski day.

And from a Macro Economics perspective, look at the rents in ski towns. People can't afford to live in most ski towns on less than $15/hr. So, you either rely on cheap foreign labor, cramped in employee housing or you offer wages that can support someone living there. The lack of foreign labor this year exposes the problem of ski areas paying too little to properly staff themselves.

There is a lot more cost involved when employing someone - the employer has to pay federal (FICA / SSI) and state taxes (which vary by state). There is also training costs, and Vail does a lot of that, break's/ lunch, possibly medical insurance, though not likely for PTers.

The company has to pay for workman's comp, drug testing in some instances and I am sure there are other things I am missing.

BUT - customer satisfaction is priceless.

 

[Hastur]

Do the vail lifties have to choose their music from a corporate approved playlist? Or is music discouraged?

 

[deadheadskier]

I was oversimplifying things and I'm aware there are more costs than just the wage. The fact remains that if the only way to staff these places is foreign help on short money or being well understaffed, then it is not a viable business model and it needs to change.

 

[raisingarizona]

There’s ridiculously long lines everywhere this year, not just out east. If you look at social medias people are blaming each area for various reasons but everything is whacked out because of covid.

 

[abc]

There is a lot more cost involved when employing someone - the employer has to pay federal (FICA / SSI) and state taxes (which vary by state). There is also training costs, and Vail does a lot of that, break's/ lunch, possibly medical insurance, though not likely for PTers.

The company has to pay for workman's comp, drug testing in some instances and I am sure there are other things I am missing.

Almost all of those cost are per employee, not per hour.

So, with all those overhead PER EMPLOYEE, it makes a whole lot more sense to pay a dollar or two extra per hour to keep them working as many hours!

Talk about penny wise and pound foolish.

 

[abc]

Not to get too political. The pay for service industry workers are artificially low, largely due to the various visa scheme. Basically, the pays are too low for the local labor force to MAKE A LIVING.

So the resorts/hotels/restaurants go to these foreign worker agencies, who exist to exploit the visa loophole to bring in workers from 3rd world countries who are willing to live in cramp quarters and make a fraction of local "livable wage". The kids they bring in didn't mind doing that for a season or two, as an experience. But at the expense of domestic labor force who could have use a reasonably paid job.

Those foreign employee agencies will lobby to keep those visa going because they stands to profit from those foreign kids. They will pretend the foreign workers are "needed". But reality, the only "need" is higher wages for the hospitality industry. Yes, it will drive up prices of hotels and lift tickets if push comes to shove. So as customers, we are partly to blame. We want absolute rock bottom prices. And we get Walmart. Once Walmart is in town, there goes option of NOT shopping there because competitors got driven out of the business (in ski industry, they sell to Vail )

 

[jimk]

There’s ridiculously long lines everywhere this year, not just out east. If you look at social medias people are blaming each area for various reasons but everything is whacked out because of covid.

Steamboat 6 Feb 2021:

 

[abc]

Wow!

I'm sticking with cross country skiing then.

 

[LonghornSkier]

Skiing JF/BB for the first time ever today. Full parking lot, no lift lines, and good snow.
Good job Vail!

 

[crystalmountainskier]

possibly medical insurance, though not likely for PTers.

Or FTers!

 

[thetrailboss]

There’s ridiculously long lines everywhere this year, not just out east. If you look at social medias people are blaming each area for various reasons but everything is whacked out because of covid.

Agreed.

 

[Jersey Skier]

Skiing JF/BB for the first time ever today. Full parking lot, no lift lines, and good snow.
Good job Vail!

Is JFBB worth skiing? It's about 1:50 drive vs. 2:30 for Hunter or Belleayre for me.