Waterville Valley Lift Issues

[gregnye]

Green Peak should have been a detach quad from the start. Reusing the world cup triple on new prime intermediate terrain showed that ownership was broke. What the world cup triple should have been used for is to replace the northside and high country doubles with a single lift in a new alignment and hopefully cut a couple new trails from the summit down into the northside ravine.

And white peaks is going to need to be replaced soon. That quad is roughly 30 years old and has a lot of hours being the main lift on the mountain. A bubble six would be a perfect replacement.

Agreed. They should have moved Quadzilla (now called Valley Run Quad--Such a lame name) to green peak. Since there is a green trail down from green peak (Chandler's way), beginners would just get a tad more vertical before hitting valley run.

I grew up skiing waterville, so it's special to me. What it's got going for it is the valley run area (show me another place in NH with such a long green trail and a high speed lift to learn on--excluding Polecat at Wildcat, because that's too intense for real beginners) and the intro to true steep (True Grit, Lower Bobbys run). When I was younger I was definitely scared of True Grit. That was my first "expert trail" in the east. Also they seriously need more glades. I grew up afraid of trees because I skied waterville. It was only once I went to vermont did that change

 

[crazy]

Also they seriously need more glades. I grew up afraid of trees because I skied waterville. It was only once I went to vermont did that change

Why does New Hampshire have such bad glades compared to Vermont? Yes, New Hampshire gets less snow, but I don't believe that this dictates why New Hampshire's glades are narrower and less interesting than Vermont's.

 

[Jully]

Well, Barker along with Superstar/Snowshed/Both Pico's and Grand Summit are Poma converted Yans, so tough to compare them against any other aging HSQ. But both Poma and Dopp have made huge changes to the grip sets and cadence systems in the current lineups vs their legacy equipment, and it's not cheap to just change out.

As to just "upgrading" FG lifts, sure you can replace the drive and return terminals and maybe change out the sheave sets (depends on the cross arm design), but as the foundation pour type that Spruce at SR showed, it may be prudent to replace towers for new footings. Replacing the drive and return terminals is probably 2/3 the cost of a totally new lift. Also remember, most of the towers are well beyond any type of manufacturer liability limits, so the resort shoulders all of that if they don't do all totally new. Not cheap insurance wise, probably more cost effective to just do all new.

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Very good and potentially terrifying point about the tower footings and liability.

As for Yans v. Older Dopps and Pomas, while I'm sure they're in better shape inside, I'm not so convinced those lifts aren't just a bit behind the yans in terms of regular downtime due to broken parts. A lot of the oldest HSQs in the east happen to be Yans, so the guts of those lifts are also older than the early 90s HSQs. Not discounting the fact that Yan is now out of business, but I wonder what lift reliability looks like in 5 years on say, the Polar Express at Wachusett compared to Barker today.

 

[Jully]

Why does New Hampshire have such bad glades compared to Vermont? Yes, New Hampshire gets less snow, but I don't believe that this dictates why New Hampshire's glades are narrower and less interesting than Vermont's.

I'll take individual glades at Cannon or Wildcat against anything Vermont has to offer. However, i agree there's a lot less variety. I know the White Mountain National Forest doesn't allow cutting on upper mountain Attitash and Wildcat (and Cannon but the locals helped there).

 

[deadheadskier]

Yes,

Basically anything over 3k feet elevation is off limits for glading in the WMNF. Though that should mean in theory, Peak could apply for permitting to cut a lot more at Attitash. They probably don't because they don't get a lot of natural snow and their clientele doesn't demand it. Definitely some spots I'd love to see them work on though. Skiers right of Idiots Option. Maybe something from Upper Saco down to Ammossuc. A nice long one between Kachina and Avenger.

I'm kinda hoping that maybe with the WMNF loosing up regulations to allow Granite Backcountry Alliance to cut some stuff, perhaps we finally see some sanctioned upper mountain glades at Cat, but I'm not holding my breath.

VT in general just has better forests for glades. A lot more hardwood vs softwood for NH. Hardwoods just have better (wider) natural spacing and are easier to cut and maintain.

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[benski]

Very good and potentially terrifying point about the tower footings and liability.

As for Yans v. Older Dopps and Pomas, while I'm sure they're in better shape inside, I'm not so convinced those lifts aren't just a bit behind the yans in terms of regular downtime due to broken parts. A lot of the oldest HSQs in the east happen to be Yans, so the guts of those lifts are also older than the early 90s HSQs. Not discounting the fact that Yan is now out of business, but I wonder what lift reliability looks like in 5 years on say, the Polar Express at Wachusett compared to Barker today.

Didn't Yan go bankrupt because there HSQ's were defective and had to have there guts replaced?

 

[SkiingInABlueDream]

Didn't Yan go bankrupt because there HSQ's were defective and had to have there guts replaced?

Was it bankruptcy or the company brand was unrecoverably damaged because chairs on their detachable lifts tended to fall off the ropes?

 

[thetrailboss]

Didn't Yan go bankrupt because there HSQ's were defective and had to have there guts replaced?

Yes. And the owner fled to Mexico to avoid extradition in related criminal actions in other countries, namely Canada where there was a bad accident with Whistler's Quicksilver (IIRC).

The key issue was the grips on Yan's detachable lifts. They were rushed into production with inadequate testing and a poor design. Investigators implied that Yan knew that the grips were defective but proceeded anyway.

Yan has a mixed history. It is credited with some innovations and a unique aesthetic design. Yan is credited with working closely with ski area owners and giving them what they want. Yan is also credited with speeding up installation work including doing assembly on site and inserting towers into wet concrete instead of bolting them to footings. They also typically overbuilt lifts so that they could be upgraded later (e.g. triples becoming quads). Overall, their fixed grips are pretty reliable assuming that the bullwheels are not of the vintage that split in half at the weld.

 

[machski]

Yes. And the owner fled to Mexico to avoid extradition in related criminal actions in other countries, namely Canada where there was a bad accident with Whistler's Quicksilver (IIRC).

The key issue was the grips on Yan's detachable lifts. They were rushed into production with inadequate testing and a poor design. Investigators implied that Yan knew that the grips were defective but proceeded anyway.

Yan has a mixed history. It is credited with some innovations and a unique aesthetic design. Yan is credited with working closely with ski area owners and giving them what they want. Yan is also credited with speeding up installation work including doing assembly on site and inserting towers into wet concrete instead of bolting them to footings. They also typically overbuilt lifts so that they could be upgraded later (e.g. triples becoming quads). Overall, their fixed grips are pretty reliable assuming that the bullwheels are not of the vintage that split in half at the weld.

^^^^This. So all Yans (not just HSQ's but all fixed grips as well) had to have the grips replaced and that meant replacing the detach rails and gear in the terminals as well. Also required changing out the sheave sets. All this had to be done prior to 98-99 season (or 99-00), can't quite remember. So Dopp and Poma teamed up, Dopp took US west Yans and Poma took US East Yans to retrofit them all. With that said, a lot of the drive and tension systems are still 100% Yan parts and when they fail, well there is no on the shelf ready to go inventory. They must be fabricated on request. (K has 4 machines so they may have took the expense to pre-fabricate and stock common fail parts).

As to older Poma's and Dopps, I have not heard they are not supporting their older builds so I would suspect repair turn times to continue being less than the Yan hybrids.

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[thetrailboss]

^^^^This. So all Yans (not just HSQ's but all fixed grips as well) had to have the grips replaced and that meant replacing the detach rails and gear in the terminals as well. Also required changing out the sheave sets. All this had to be done prior to 98-99 season (or 99-00), can't quite remember. So Dopp and Poma teamed up, Dopp took US west Yans and Poma took US East Yans to retrofit them all. With that said, a lot of the drive and tension systems are still 100% Yan parts and when they fail, well there is no on the shelf ready to go inventory. They must be fabricated on request. (K has 4 machines so they may have took the expense to pre-fabricate and stock common fail parts).

As to older Poma's and Dopps, I have not heard they are not supporting their older builds so I would suspect repair turn times to continue being less than the Yan hybrids.

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Right. And Yan I believe had a significantly lower pricepoint for their lifts than Poma and Dopp. Yan also was pretty much the last major U.S. manufacturer as well. They also did a good job pushing out lifts for ski areas that were growing (such as Squaw Valley, Killington, Sunday River, etc.) I see a lot of smaller areas reusing Yan lifts. But admittedly the main areas are getting rid of their Yans...mainly out here.

 

[Jully]

Right. And Yan I believe had a significantly lower pricepoint for their lifts than Poma and Dopp. Yan also was pretty much the last major U.S. manufacturer as well. They also did a good job pushing out lifts for ski areas that were growing (such as Squaw Valley, Killington, Sunday River, etc.) I see a lot of smaller areas reusing Yan lifts. But admittedly the main areas are getting rid of their Yans...mainly out here.

A good bit cheaper. Yan did a lot of cool innovations in the industry. He was clearly bright and liked to push the envelope, he just pushed too far with the grips. That said, fleeing the US was a major dirtbag move. Their fixed grips are some of the most reliable around though. I don't see those going anywhere back east anytime soon.

 

[thetrailboss]

A good bit cheaper. Yan did a lot of cool innovations in the industry. He was clearly bright and liked to push the envelope, he just pushed too far with the grips. That said, fleeing the US was a major dirtbag move. Their fixed grips are some of the most reliable around though. I don't see those going anywhere back east anytime soon.

IIRC there was also a criminal investigation into him taking money from LA or some California City to build a monorail or something that never got off the ground.

 

[thetrailboss]

Ah, here it is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angels_Flight

 

[crazy]

Yes,

Basically anything over 3k feet elevation is off limits for glading in the WMNF. Though that should mean in theory, Peak could apply for permitting to cut a lot more at Attitash. They probably don't because they don't get a lot of natural snow and their clientele doesn't demand it. Definitely some spots I'd love to see them work on though. Skiers right of Idiots Option. Maybe something from Upper Saco down to Ammossuc. A nice long one between Kachina and Avenger.

I'm kinda hoping that maybe with the WMNF loosing up regulations to allow Granite Backcountry Alliance to cut some stuff, perhaps we finally see some sanctioned upper mountain glades at Cat, but I'm not holding my breath.

VT in general just has better forests for glades. A lot more hardwood vs softwood for NH. Hardwoods just have better (wider) natural spacing and are easier to cut and maintain.

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Thank you, your answer is very helpful. I was not aware of the 3k feet elevation rule. That wouldn't apply to Cannon though, right, since they're in Franconia Notch State Park? Cannon has some tight glades, but I am not a huge fan of them. They're fun once in awhile, but I hate not having a lot of choice in terms of picking a line, plus they get tracked SO quickly after a storm. Wildcat gets enough snow, especially up top, where wider glades could be really fun. Honestly, one of the main reasons that I drive all the way up to VT is for the glades at places like Mad River and Jay.

 

[sull1102]

White Peaks is one of the earliest Detach quads in the East as an 1988 installation. Quadzilla is very valuable where it is in my opinion and having three detach lifts would've really set WV apart from most NH mountains except Loon. They really should be investigating a bubble six pack for a White Peaks replacement here if they want to compete and stand out like they did wayyyyyy back in the day. Nowadays it feels like WV is fighting off Ragged, Crotched, Gunstock instead of fighting up to the level of say Loon and Cannon.

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[ss20]

Killington, SR, Squaw, Alta, Mammouth, and many many other major players were built on Yan lifts. Many of which are still turning. Solid fixed grips.

 

[deadheadskier]

Thank you, your answer is very helpful. I was not aware of the 3k feet elevation rule. That wouldn't apply to Cannon though, right, since they're in Franconia Notch State Park? Cannon has some tight glades, but I am not a huge fan of them. They're fun once in awhile, but I hate not having a lot of choice in terms of picking a line, plus they get tracked SO quickly after a storm. Wildcat gets enough snow, especially up top, where wider glades could be really fun. Honestly, one of the main reasons that I drive all the way up to VT is for the glades at places like Mad River and Jay.

Most on map glades at Cannon were cut by locals and the mountain just put them on the map. Yes, they don't have to play by the same rules being state land. They have an immense amount of trees still off map that you can find fresh snow on.

Agree on Wildcat. That's my "home hill." So much acreage between Upper Wildcat and Catapult as well as Lynx and Polecat to cut some vast glades. I harp on that with management every time I talk with them. Big dream of mine to see that happen someday.

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[Smellytele]

The glades that were cut at Wildcat were done poorly. They left only birch trees and birch tree do not do well by themselves in that weather. A couple of glades they had to close for a few years for regrowth when all the birch trees started to die.

 

[deadheadskier]

The glades that were cut at Wildcat were done poorly. They left only birch trees and birch tree do not do well by themselves in that weather. A couple of glades they had to close for a few years for regrowth when all the birch trees started to die.

Agreed that the old Mountain Jag wasn't handled properly and as I understand it, cut without a permit. The rest of the ones on the lower mountain were done pretty well though I think

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[Newpylong]

None of the WV issues surprise me. They are notoriously cheap and make questionable capital and project management decisions.