Why are lessons so expensive?

[abc]

I asked because it has been cited to me repeatedly as a barrier to entry for people who otherwise are interested in taking up the sport. If you train people well and train them cheaply, don't you get more out of them over the long haul as habitual skiers? I assume mountains have thought about this, so I was just looking for something concrete that results in high costs.

If it really is simply profit taking in a market where some people will pay it, that seems short sighted to me.

But beginer lessons aren't expensive. Many resort has learn-to-ski packages that are not much more than the lift ticket plus rental, with instruction pratically thrown in for free. Any savy beginer knows he would do well by taking advantage of such packages. Those who thrown themselves down the slope un-taught are minorities, more likely mis-guided by their "friend" who took them there in the first place.

But if you're talking about coninuation of lessons beyond beginer level, you're right. It's expensive so a lot of lower intermediate don't take any more and are stuck in that termal level.

Not sure if the mountain can actually profit from the outcome of better skiers/boarders. So it would be up to each mountain to price its lesson package to forster any relationships.

Persoanlly, I'm not sure I agree people don't take lessons. Many do, even though equally many don't, On the other hand, I'm equally unsure those 1 1/2 hr lesson does much good above the intermediate (parallel) level. I think it's more of a cost to result ratio that people found "expensive" beyond the wedge level. It takes more than 1 or 2 lessons to move beyond parallel. At that rate, it becomes expensive. That's why many intermediate don't take lesson any more.

 

[jaywbigred]

But beginer lessons aren't expensive. Many resort has learn-to-ski packages that are not much more than the lift ticket plus rental, with instruction pratically thrown in for free. Any savy beginer knows he would do well by taking advantage of such packages. Those who thrown themselves down the slope un-taught are minorities, more likely mis-guided by their "friend" who took them there in the first place.

Let me couch what I am saying by stating that for the entirety of this thread I have been speaking regarding adult lessons only. And, mostly, I have been talking about people, adults, that do not qualify for the never-ever packages.

That being said, I have already stated that I understand that these packages for neverevers do exist. I actually put together a chart in MS Word the other night to compare the costs, but it needs a lot of improving before I post it. What I saw is of these packages is what you might expect: they usually come with multi-day discounts, rentals, and a restricted lift ticket. Given the utility of a restricted ticket, and the commitment required of any multi-day deal that cannot be used in a single weekend, I question just how cheap they really are. Your first day(s) on skis aren't always joyous; to commit to coming back for another weekend and spending all the lodging costs and time again is hard for some folks. Further, if your an adult, spending 2, 3, 4 or more days on the bunny slopes might not seem like a ton of fun, esp. while friends are off skiing/riding the whole mountain. So the restricted lift ticket is a stopping point, but to upgrade costs more money.

But if you're talking about coninuation of lessons beyond beginer level, you're right. It's expensive so a lot of lower intermediate don't take any more and are stuck in that termal level.

As I said, this IS what I've been talking about. When I said "barrier to entry", I guess what I really mean is "barrier to becoming a dedicated skier." By age 30, I would venture to guess that most (though not all) people that WILL ever try skiing HAVE already tried skiing. A lot of them will not qualify for the never-ever packages. These are people that go skiing once or twice a year. They want to go more, but they can't keep up. They are self conscious about their skills, and about holding the group back. They can ski from the top of the mountain on green and maybe blue trails without help, and often times without falling. But they take their time. They are careful, slow, and petrified by non-perfect conditions (flat light, ice, crowds, etc...). What they need are a few pointers and some confidence boosting. Imo, that comes from a series of lessons, but a series of lessons for these type of people would be hundreds of dollars, on top of their all mountain lift ticket. The cost is so high, that these people often hit the slopes with either antiquated or borrowed equipment (in order to save on renting), which doesn't help the cause.

Not sure if the mountain can actually profit from the outcome of better skiers/boarders. So it would be up to each mountain to price its lesson package to forster any relationships.

The people I describe above come skiing once or twice a year (2-4 days). If they could keep up with the group, they would probably come 5 or 6 times a year or more (10-12 days). Let's face it, for the most part, frustrated, upper level beginners or lower level intermediates do not ski 20 or 30 days a year. They don't take week long vacations to go skiing. They don't stay slopeside/ski-in, ski-out because they often can't or are scared to ski out. To me, if you wanted to increase skier days at your mountain, you'd work at getting these people to be solid intermediates or better, so that they become habitual skiers who ski all the major holidays, a couple weekends on top of that, plus take a week long ski vacation once a year.

Persoanlly, I'm not sure I agree people don't take lessons. Many do, even though equally many don't,

Well, we could argue about that until the cows come home, I am not sure there is a way to gauge it. I am just speaking from experience. I did not grow up in ski country, so a lot of my childhood and HS friends didn't ski, so some of the people I am describing come from this group. I went to college at a school that attracted students from all over the country and world, and so still others of the people I am describing are people from this group (Southerners, foreign folks). And I went to grad school in the midwest, where there was no legitimate skiing within a 6 hour drive, so the people I am describing are also in this group. Maybe I am unique this way, but I know that if lessons were half as much as they are now for these type of people, I probably know 20 or more people who I think would become habitual skiers within a year or two.

On the other hand, I'm equally unsure those 1 1/2 hr lesson does much good above the intermediate (parallel) level. I think it's more of a cost to result ratio that people found "expensive" beyond the wedge level. It takes more than 1 or 2 lessons to move beyond parallel. At that rate, it becomes expensive. That's why many intermediate don't take lesson any more.

I am not really sure wtf you are saying here. I think it is pretty much a fact that skiers of all levels can benefit from lessons, coaching, clinics, etc... The best skiers in the world are still coached constantly. There is always room to improve. Certainly, for the people I am describing, lessons can only help, if not from a technical standpoint, then from a confidence standpoint alone.

 

[trtaylor]

The small feeder hills here in the east generally have great, multi-week, instruction programs set up for school groups (public/private/home-school). The instructors I know speak very highly of these programs, because generally, you get to work with the same group each week. From the instructor perspective, it is very rewarding work.

These school programs do a great job of developing young, solid intermediate skiers, who are likely to stay in the sport for their lifetime.

Edit: I realize the bigger mountains also have school group programs. One advantage the feeder hills have is night skiing.

 

[jaywbigred]

The small feeder hills here in the east generally have great, multi-week, instruction programs set up for school groups (public/private/home-school). The instructors I know speak very highly of these programs, because generally, you get to work with the same group each week. From the instructor perspective, it is very rewarding work.

These school programs do a great job of developing young, solid intermediate skiers, who are likely to stay in the sport for their lifetime.

Edit: I realize the bigger mountains also have school group programs. One advantage the feeder hills have is night skiing.

Yes, I think for children or youngsters, it is a completely different story than for adults.

 

[severine]

Yes, I think for children or youngsters, it is a completely different story than for adults.

How so? Sundown, for example (a feeder hill), has weekly adult programs, day and night:
http://skisundown.com/programs/adult/

This is on top of the regularly available group and private lessons. Same option available as the weekly school groups, you just have to utilize it.

 

[trtaylor]

How so? Sundown, for example (a feeder hill), has weekly adult programs, day and night:
http://skisundown.com/programs/adult/

This is on top of the regularly available group and private lessons. Same option available as the weekly school groups, you just have to utilize it.

Good point. Blue Mountain has a 6 week adult racing program, available on Wednesday mornings or Tuesday evenings for $175.

I can't think of a more effective way for an intermediate to raise their skill level.

Yes, there are marketing issues ("racing" term probably turns people off) and there is a disconnect between the ski school and the racing department at most hills. But, Carrie's point is correct, there are affordable programs out there, if people look hard enough.

Here's another example. Blue Mountain also has other multi-week "Premier Programs", such as a four week Intro to Bumps program for $170. I'm sure other hills, like Sundown, have similar offerings.

Yes, these aren't private lessons. If that's what someone wants, then they'll just have to pony up and pay for it.

 

[gorgonzola]

i'm not following this at all... most mountains offer reasonable group lessons for a variety of levels - for both adults and kids and from what I've seen they are way under utilized and become private/semi privates anyway if you plan and play your cards right. i've been a fan of the clinics over the last few years - my wife has done blue's women's workshop for the last 5 or so years and race clinic for the last 2, this will be my 3rd year for race clinic. it's around $170 for 5 or six 2-1/2 hr sessions. just like the kids, we have a blast skiing around with the group and we've both made alot of friends from these and she's progressed incredibly

i think what stops most of the casual skiers from lessons is giving up that 1-1/2 hour of hill time, they feel those 5-6 hours of ski time come at a premium and don't want to "waste" it in lessons...

 

[mlctvt]

This is a great thread. I always wondered why the cost is so high myself. I’m a solid Intermediate skier; I’ve just never taken a lesson mostly due to the high cost.

I started skiing in High School and skied just a few times per year. My wife’s situation is exactly the same as mine. About five years ago we bought a place at Mount Snow so we’re skiing 30+ days per year now. Each year we think about lessons but never get around to making an appointment.

My home mountain charges $100 per hour for private lessons for 1 person or $150 per hour for 2 people. I think this is outrageous. I know from talking to instructors that they make meager wages probably $10 to 15 per hour or less. One instructor I rode the lift with a couple of weeks ago was shocked to learn they charges $100 for a 1 hour private lesson.

If private lessons were in the $40 to $45 per hour range I would definitely take them. I think this would still allow the mountain to make a nice profit unless I'm missing something...

 

[deadheadskier]

My understanding the way it goes regarding pay on private lessons is the instructor gets a percentage of the total cost. Veteran instructors who are requested more often get a higher percentage per lesson than the rookies.

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

If private lessons were in the $40 to $45 per hour range I would definitely take them. I think this would still allow the mountain to make a nice profit unless I'm missing something...

By no means am I saying I am right, but when people talk profit, I am guessing they are not talking profit for the learn to ski program, but better yet making a profit so other things within the resort can be kept at a certain price point, can afford insurance, etc. Perhaps if the ski school was cheaper the price of lift tickets, food, or other things would go even higher. Now with higher lift tickets, food, etc you are pricing the people out who are eyed as a sure buck vs the possiblility of getting a few more people to sign up for ski school, who would be considered a potential buck. This is all hypothetical as I have no clue if ski schools even with their current (possible) high profit levels really amount to much at the end of the day. Perhaps liability insurance for ski schools is also very high so profit margins are not as great as some think.

 

[Breeze]

There are ways to maximize the skiing dollar. One shops for lodging partners to ski areas and one shops ski areas/resorts for best pricing. If one wants a grand ski weekend at a Big Name resort, it won't be just the cost of lessons that will set you back big bucks.

To fixate on ONE part of the cost ( lessons alone) and not other costs ( lodging, meals, rentals, clothing, lift tickets, apres- ski entertainment and travel costs) seems rather close-minded.

Breeze

 

[gmcunni]

. . .I’m a solid Intermediate skier; I’ve just never taken a lesson mostly due to the high cost.
-snip-
If private lessons were in the $40 to $45 per hour range I would definitely take them.

have you considered an advanced group lesson for you and your wife? pick a non-busy weekend, i'd bet you were the only 2 in the class.

Mt Snow's learning page is hard to read but Okemo as an example -

AM Adult Clinics
Levels 5 & up; ski or board
Every Morning at 8:30 am (75 minutes)
Cost: $50
Black Diamonds - You enjoy blue and black terrain using a variety of turn shapes. Now it's time to develop the skills and confidence to ski & ride the steeper groomed Black slopes.


i did this twice several years ago when i was getting back into skiing, both times i got a private lesson. Since i was alone we worked on anything i wanted. and no waiting in lift lines

 

[mlctvt]

have you considered an advanced group lesson for you and your wife? pick a non-busy weekend, i'd bet you were the only 2 in the class.

Mt Snow's learning page is hard to read but Okemo as an example -

AM Adult Clinics
Levels 5 & up; ski or board
Every Morning at 8:30 am (75 minutes)
Cost: $50
Black Diamonds - You enjoy blue and black terrain using a variety of turn shapes. Now it's time to develop the skills and confidence to ski & ride the steeper groomed Black slopes.


i did this twice several years ago when i was getting back into skiing, both times i got a private lesson. Since i was alone we worked on anything i wanted. and no waiting in lift lines

Yes, you're not the first person to tell me this . The group rates are much more reasonable aren't they. I think we'll try it later this year , maybe on a week day or a non-busy weekend.

 

[Breeze]

Wildcat offers an Early Bird Private Lesson, $40 dollars for an hour. Yes, you have to be ready to go at 8:45 on weekends, 9:00 AM weekdays, you have to reserve in advance, but at that time of the morning, you have the sole attention of an instructor and you are on the slopes, not in line in the lodge or waiting for " when we get to you".

40 bucks for a private lesson. How much lower can that price go?

Breeze

 

[billski]

Wildcat offers an Early Bird Private Lesson, $40 dollars for an hour. Yes, you have to be ready to go at 8:45 on weekends, 9:00 AM weekdays, you have to reserve in advance, but at that time of the morning, you have the sole attention of an instructor and you are on the slopes, not in line in the lodge or waiting for " when we get to you".

40 bucks for a private lesson. How much lower can that price go?

Breeze

that's a good deal. Even the small areas are not that low. This belongs in the cheap thread!

 

[catskillman]

The 9am & 3pm private lessons at Hunter are discounted. And they should be - at 3 you get skied off conditions, which may be perfect depending what you need to work on, but you get an instructor who is tired, has not had lucng and want't to get to happy hour.

Instructors have to pay for their own certification, annual dues (about $100 annually now) and the cost of a semi annual event requirement which cost about $135 not including you travel & lodging. And they miss these days at work.

I know the ski school at Windham & Hunter get the jactets highly subsidized from the vendor and take a credit card as a deposit. If you don't turn it in you are charged for the jacket.

As far as non ski school individuals giving lessons - I see it from mostly ex instructors. But - current instructors often hire instructore/examiners from differant mountains to help them pass exams. They typically meet at a third mountain, with the trainee paying the lift ticket costs and X$.

An instructor will receive extra pay for a private if you request them (RPL). At H it is $20 now plus your hourly rate. RPLs are an industry wide issue for dozens of years One thing Hunter finally pulled together after 50 years is paying instuctors more for teaching kids. They lost many many instructors over this issue.

 

[Breeze]

It pays to dig a little on websites. If you are looking at Wildcat at all, check out the "lodging partners" at Stay and Play. The Royalty and the Town and Country all but let you sleep overnight and eat breakfast for nothing if you purchase your WC lift ticket there. NOTE I didn't say it wasn't going to cost you ANYTHING, and yes you are going to throw down PPDO, but if you can get lodging, breakfast AND all day full lift tickets for basically little more than the cost of the lift ticket........ who wouldn't see a benefit? Heck, the Royalty even plays with Sunday River.

Breeze

 

[bigbog]

My $.01 really is, as many onboard here will say, it's what you bring to the table...that makes for a great lesson. With the previous statement said, and with one's mind kept open, I think there's always something valuable...wayy beyond its price, in a lesson that one can learn....if you wanna look hard enough. Grab the lodging anywhere.
*EDIT: ...But then I stay up here in Maine, so there is less $$$ spent.

 

[abc]

]That being said, I have already stated that I understand that these packages for neverevers do exist. I actually put together a chart in MS Word the other night to compare the costs, but it needs a lot of improving before I post it. What I saw is of these packages is what you might expect: they usually come with multi-day discounts, rentals, and a restricted lift ticket. Given the utility of a restricted ticket, and the commitment required of any multi-day deal that cannot be used in a single weekend, I question just how cheap they really are. Your first day(s) on skis aren't always joyous; to commit to coming back for another weekend and spending all the lodging costs and time again is hard for some folks. Further, if your an adult, spending 2, 3, 4 or more days on the bunny slopes might not seem like a ton of fun, esp. while friends are off skiing/riding the whole mountain. So the restricted lift ticket is a stopping point, but to upgrade costs more money.

As I said, this IS what I've been talking about. When I said "barrier to entry", I guess what I really mean is "barrier to becoming a dedicated skier." By age 30, I would venture to guess that most (though not all) people that WILL ever try skiing HAVE already tried skiing. A lot of them will not qualify for the never-ever packages. These are people that go skiing once or twice a year. They want to go more, but they can't keep up. They are self conscious about their skills, and about holding the group back. They can ski from the top of the mountain on green and maybe blue trails without help, and often times without falling. But they take their time. They are careful, slow, and petrified by non-perfect conditions (flat light, ice, crowds, etc...). What they need are a few pointers and some confidence boosting. Imo, that comes from a series of lessons, but a series of lessons for these type of people would be hundreds of dollars, on top of their all mountain lift ticket. The cost is so high, that these people often hit the slopes with either antiquated or borrowed equipment (in order to save on renting), which doesn't help the cause.

The people I describe above come skiing once or twice a year (2-4 days). If they could keep up with the group, they would probably come 5 or 6 times a year or more (10-12 days). Let's face it, for the most part, frustrated, upper level beginners or lower level intermediates do not ski 20 or 30 days a year. They don't take week long vacations to go skiing. They don't stay slopeside/ski-in, ski-out because they often can't or are scared to ski out. To me, if you wanted to increase skier days at your mountain, you'd work at getting these people to be solid intermediates or better, so that they become habitual skiers who ski all the major holidays, a couple weekends on top of that, plus take a week long ski vacation once a year.

I'm not familiar with the demographic you're describing. I learned to ski as an adult, but in a region that have feeder hills. So I did take advantage of whatever lesson packages there were without incurring the high cost of lodging and travel. As far as I was concern, there's no "barrier" to entry. I could have quit after the 3rd try, or after the 15th try. All I wasted were the cost of day lift tickets/package cost, which really wasn't all that horrible at most of the 300' feeder hills.

I also am not familiar with the limitation you described for the beginer packages. I dabbled at snowboarding while in CA. There, the smaller hills (this case, "smaller" mean 2000' instead of 3000-4000' mountains) offer packages that allows access to the full mountain starting on day 2! In my case, when I got sick of falling & sitting on my butts, I simply ditched the boarding set and went skiing on my skis all over the place!!!

About the only thing I see that's really "too expensive" is private lessons. That seems to be viewed as a premium product and are charged accordingly. Personally, I learn pretty well (if not better) in a group setting so I really don't have experience to comment on the cost of the privates, or whether their high prices are deterring any potential skiers from reaching their potentials.

Of the people I knew who "tried" skiing but didn't continue, it wasn't so much the cost of the lesson but the crowd, the lines (or the cold) and above all, the overall cost of skiing (now we're talking about travel and lodging cost to the "real" mountains). So from my prospective, I don't get the sense ski lessons are the deal breaker of skier retention.

 

[jaywbigred]

have you considered an advanced group lesson for you and your wife? pick a non-busy weekend, i'd bet you were the only 2 in the class.

Mt Snow's learning page is hard to read but Okemo as an example -

AM Adult Clinics
Levels 5 & up; ski or board
Every Morning at 8:30 am (75 minutes)
Cost: $50
Black Diamonds - You enjoy blue and black terrain using a variety of turn shapes. Now it's time to develop the skills and confidence to ski & ride the steeper groomed Black slopes.


i did this twice several years ago when i was getting back into skiing, both times i got a private lesson. Since i was alone we worked on anything i wanted. and no waiting in lift lines

I guess to me, $50 for a group lesson that lasts 1 hour and 15 minutes seems "expensive" when you consider that you will likely be tipping (what, at least $10 or $20 bucks?) and that the instructor is making a couple bucks an hour.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I just think it is rather high. Asking a non-enthusiast to pony up $140 a day for a lesson and lift ticket on a habitual basis prices a lot of people out. Heck, the lift ticket alone prices a lot of people out!