World Cup

[drjeff]

Next year's calendar is set so no repeat Superstar WC in 2017. I'd bet it'll be back for 2018 though.

Not entirely so.

There is a preliminary schedule for next year's WC races. The schedule isn't finalized until after the May '17 F.I.S. meeting. Remember that Killington and Squaw Valley didn't get their race dates made official until May of this year.

Wouldn't surprise me at all if the F.I.S. rethinks their preliminary schedule for next season to see if they can get another East Coast date as from what it seems, the F.I.S., Killington, the US Ski and Snowboard Association, the Vermont Alpine Racing Association, and the racers themselves were very happy with the event at Killington.

Next season, being a season with the Winter Olympics in it, could complicate the scheduling a bit as the Olympic break is typically a week or 2 earlier than a World Championship break (like happens this year) and that take a bit of a schedule shake up if they want to make it happen.

Fingers crossed

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[cdskier]

Not sure I agree. Stowe has made significant investments in snowmaking over the years. Today they report 18 trails and 5.5 miles with multiple TBT 2,000 vertical runs. I think with the added firepower that was provided to K that Stowe could pull it off.

How does the water flow capacity at Stowe compare to K? Also, did K do any additional pipe work to decrease the spacing between guns to allow them to run more guns on Superstar? If so, would Stowe be willing to do that as well?

Also, just to point out, K was able to open Superstar PLUS terrain for others. Right now Stowe has I'll say 1.5ish T2B routes open. Hayride (which was mentioned a bit earlier in this thread as the Stowe GS trail that could work) is wider and steeper than the trails open right now, so would require more snow to cover. Plus you have to cover them to FIS standards. I'm not saying they can't do it as I know little about the capacity of their system, I'm just saying I have a strong feeling even with the recent upgrades that their system is still behind K's system by a decent margin and simply bringing in rental compressors isn't necessarily enough.

That said I would love to see another race in the east no matter what resort it is at. If it was at Stowe I'd be just as happy as if it was at K again. I think the east deserves a race every year after seeing how well the event went at K.

 

[doublediamond]

Well, FIS made an exception to have races on shortened courses at Killington, so I doubt it's a stretch to consider what a former Olympic venue could provide. AlpineZone mobile app

Source? Both the GS and SL courses fit the rules (GS = 348, req. 250-400m / SL = 190m, req. 140-200m). When the announcers were talking about a "short course" they were referring to the horizontal or hypotenuse length. The Superstar SL gradient was steeper than Levi and the Superstar GS gradient was steeper than Sölden.

 

[doublediamond]

but the trail itself leaves a lot to be desired for racing due to how flat it is in the middle section.

30% is flat? Have you seen the Aspen GS course? Have you seen the top or bottom of the Sölden course?

 

[doublediamond]

I think with the added firepower that was provided to K that Stowe could pull it off.

Stowe couldn't. They'd need to make a lot of snow to get to Hayride and to get back to a lift. Or they'd make snow on Main St which is where all racing is done these days. Neither have hydrants every 30 feet like Superstar. And Main St faces south.

 

[doublediamond]

How does the water flow capacity at Stowe compare to K? Also, did K do any additional pipe work to decrease the spacing between guns to allow them to run more guns on Superstar? If so, would Stowe be willing to do that as well?

Stowe cannot pump 12000 gpm like Killington can. Killington did not do any pipe improvements ahead of this other than the 4 electrical outlets installed (was that this summer or the previous one?) at the bottom. They had some hughe (3, 4"?) hoses from the north (what trail were they tied to?) with portable hydrants to split them once they put the boatloads of K3000s at the bottom. I do know it was reported that at one point Killington was putting 3800 gpm on Superstar alone (plus whatever on Skyelark and elsewhere on the mountain).

 

[cdskier]

Stowe cannot pump 12000 gpm like Killington can. Killington did not do any pipe improvements ahead of this other than the 4 electrical outlets installed (was that this summer or the previous one?) at the bottom. They had some hughe (3, 4"?) hoses from the north (what trail were they tied to?) with portable hydrants to split them once they put the boatloads of K3000s at the bottom. I do know it was reported that at one point Killington was putting 3800 gpm on Superstar alone (plus whatever on Skyelark and elsewhere on the mountain).

Good info. In your previous post you mentioned the 30 foot hydrant spacing on Superstar which is what I was alluding to with pipe work. They already had that though on SS I take it, but it is still none-the-less something Stowe doesn't have at the moment on their trails as you also pointed out.

I'm actually a bit surprised at the 3800gpm number. I would have thought much higher with the number of guns they had running.

 

[drjeff]

Stowe - no way they could handle a crowd the size of which turned out at K this past weekend!

K had the KBL, Vale, Ramshead, Snowshed, Pico and Skyeship lots packed, with with probably close to 2 miles of extra, both sides of the road cars parked along them as well.

Stowe just doesn't have the space to do that, and long distance, off site shuttle to/from lots likely won't help draw the likely desired BIG crowd that the F.I.S. saw and would want again.

You can argue the merits of Hayride vs Superstar all you want, but that's not the whole story as the space to handle a BIG crowd is as important part of the equation

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[doublediamond]

Sölden's Rettenbach GS vs. Killington's Superstar GS:

 

[deadheadskier]

Source? Both the GS and SL courses fit the rules (GS = 348, req. 250-400m / SL = 190m, req. 140-200m). When the announcers were talking about a "short course" they were referring to the horizontal or hypotenuse length. The Superstar SL gradient was steeper than Levi and the Superstar GS gradient was steeper than Sölden.

My mistake then. I was going exactly off what the announcers were saying.

30% is flat? Have you seen the Aspen GS course? Have you seen the top or bottom of the Sölden course?

The whole trail might be 30%. The Headwall is quite steep, "Preston's pitch" is reasonably steep. Middle Superstar is very flat and that's the longest portion of the course. Hayride doesn't have a big flat section like that. Neither does Narrow Gauge or Competition Hill at Sugarloaf. Baron's at Cannon doesn't either now that it's been brought back to life. Maybe the other trails you mention do. I was talking about alternative East Coast options, so those are kind of irrelevant to the conversation.

 

[deadheadskier]

Stowe - no way they could handle a crowd the size of which turned out at K this past weekend!

K had the KBL, Vale, Ramshead, Snowshed, Pico and Skyeship lots packed, with with probably close to 2 miles of extra, both sides of the road cars parked along them as well.

Stowe just doesn't have the space to do that, and long distance, off site shuttle to/from lots likely won't help draw the likely desired BIG crowd that the F.I.S. saw and would want again.

You can argue the merits of Hayride vs Superstar all you want, but that's not the whole story as the space to handle a BIG crowd is as important part of the equation

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No argument from me there. In terms of facilities to handle a large crowd, K is most definitely the best option.

 

[from_the_NEK]

At 3800 gpm, they were turning an olympic swimming pool into snow in less than 3 hours. That is impressive.

 

[doublediamond]

Good info. In your previous post you mentioned the 30 foot hydrant spacing on Superstar which is what I was alluding to with pipe work. They already had that though on SS I take it, but it is still none-the-less something Stowe doesn't have at the moment on their trails as you also pointed out.

I'm actually a bit surprised at the 3800gpm number. I would have thought much higher with the number of guns they had running.

Yes, all that infrastructure is from Killington's 25+ years of 30-foot Superstar glaciers which made it the perfect location to host a [relatively] last minute schedule change like this was.

It was reported they had 120 K3000 snowguns on Superstar. 3800 gpm is 31.6 gallons per gun, which seems about right.

 

[doublediamond]

My mistake then. I was going exactly off what the announcers were saying.



The whole trail might be 30%. The Headwall is quite steep, "Preston's pitch" is reasonably steep. Middle Superstar is very flat and that's the longest portion of the course. Hayride doesn't have a big flat section like that. Neither does Narrow Gauge or Competition Hill at Sugarloaf. Baron's at Cannon doesn't either now that it's been brought back to life. Maybe the other trails you mention do. I was talking about alternative East Coast options, so those are kind of irrelevant to the conversation.

Per USGS DEM, Middle Superstar is 30% over the flattest 100 m horizontally and 32.4% over 750 m horizontally. I get 51% on Preston's Pitch over the steepest 100 m horizontally. Preston's Pitch was reported as 49% on some local Killington TV station linked somewhere.

Levi tops at 52% and both the men and women were struggling immensely with that pitch which is much shorter than Preston's Pitch. Many women were having a tough time with Preston's in the SL event too. Though some of that might have been due to a trickier gate arrangement. In Levi the gates were far apart on that pitch because it was short. Preston's was flatter but very sustained. The number of turning gates in a slalom is 30-35% of the vertical drop ± 3. The first run was 54 turning gates... that's the bare minimum according to the rules (0.3 x 190 - 3 = 54). The 2nd run had 55 turning gates. Both had one additional non-turning gate.

348 m drop over 894 m horizontally is 39.0% average gradient.

...

Aren't you comparing Superstar to existing ladies' WC event sites? That it's too flat and too short? I'm comparing directly to two existing WC GS sites. Sölden with flatter sections and Aspen with a very flat and very narrow middle section which is a work road.

 

[deadheadskier]

No, I was simply comparing Superstar to other racing trails in the East. Maybe I'm wrong. I've skied Superstar hundreds of times and it always struck me as very flat in the middle for a very long length. Maybe it's width makes the trail seem flatter than what it really is. I've never gotten that feeling on some of the others like Hayride, Narrow Gauge or Barron's.

 

[Highway Star]

My mistake then. I was going exactly off what the announcers were saying.

I heard a load of BS in person from someone NBC connected about about Superstar barely being sufficient, and not sufficient at all for men's technical events, based on the number of gates. Which is utter BS. Superstar can most certainly host men's worldcup GS.

http://www.fis-ski.com/mm/Document/...kiing/02/03/07/icr_16.07.13.clean_Neutral.pdf

In fact, from the top of Skye peak to the bottom at route 4, is sufficient to host WC men's DH, per the 750m min elevation in exceptional cases. (page 80)

I also heard a secondhand rumor that Killington is (or was) being considered for a men's technical event much sooner than anyone could possibly expect, where they would step in to host a race that is in danger of (or was) being cancelled elsewhere. Something similar just happened with Beaver Creek canceling and Val d`Isère taking the races.

http://www.mtexpress.com/sports/fiv...cle_b141e2ae-b0d3-11e6-8d4d-5f6fd8806f1d.html

 

[WWF-VT]

In fact, from the top of Skye peak to the bottom at route 4, is sufficient to host WC men's DH, per the 750m min elevation in exceptional cases. (page 80)

Only if they are combining an Alpine Downhill and a Nordic Cross Country ski race

 

[Highway Star]

Yes, all that infrastructure is from Killington's 25+ years of 30-foot Superstar glaciers which made it the perfect location to host a [relatively] last minute schedule change like this was.

It was reported they had 120 K3000 snowguns on Superstar. 3800 gpm is 31.6 gallons per gun, which seems about right.

From what I hear, this might not be the last "last minute" schedule change race that Killington picks up. The wide trail layout, pitch changes, length, with the dedicated lift, deep icy snowpack, and a road that extends directly up to the venue. It's pretty much the perfect technical event venue.

I've strongly recommended that they hold pro park events on superstar, I have no idea why they don't.

 

[deadheadskier]

In fact, from the top of Skye peak to the bottom at route 4, is sufficient to host WC men's DH, per the 750m min elevation in exceptional cases. (page 80)

OK - tell us the route via which trails that would make for a good course. It might work in terms of overall pitch, but I'd think the middle section where it's so flat on Great Eastern would be a non-starter for a DH course.

 

[Highway Star]

Only if they are combining an Alpine Downhill and a Nordic Cross Country ski race

Nope. The course would be 2.5 miles long and 760m, which is acceptable. The middle would offer a challenging gliding section, with a steep start and finish.