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2023/2024 Season Passes

thetrailboss

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Also, Snowbird owns all of the properties around their resort, Alta does not from what I understand. Larger crowds would benefit Snowbird more than Alta as there are more opportunities to make off the mountain revenue at hotels and restaurants if you own everything. That could be part of the reason why you've seen the Alta passes become more restrictive but Snowbird's has stayed the same.
Spot on. Snowbird DOES own all of its restaurants and MOST of its lodging. There are timeshares, but those are kind of owned by the mountain. So yes, Snowbird THINKS that having people travel and stay in higher volumes will yield more money. But the thing that may be skewing their figures is that there are A LOT of Utahans who are IKON passholders but DON'T stay overnight or eat, buy souvenirs, etc.

Alta ONCE owned and operated the Goldminer's Daughter. I believe that they have leased that out. Alta once again owns and operates all of its on-site restaurants with the exception of Alta Java and the small cafe at Goldminers. They operate Albion Cafeteria and maybe the cafeteria at the Goldminer's daughter. You are right that a larger portion of Alta's revenues are directly tied to season passholders who are largely local. So crowding made those folks upset and caused some to leave.
I think what I've mentioned above is one of the reasons why they haven't done so but on that note, they really messed up their hotel guest experience this year.
Putting the interlodges aside, which is out of their control, prices for rooms on mountain at Snowbird were sky high this season. You also had random people sleeping all around the lobby and common areas on each floor. The employees at the spa told my wife to make sure to keep our doors locked as people not staying at that hotel have been stealing property from guest rooms and the spa inside of the hotel. A guy I work with had the same experience during his stay, neither of us are in a rush to go back and I'm sure there are many more like us based on this season's hotel experience.
As to pricing: I bet that they adopted the dynamic pricing model. More demand, higher prices. I can see them adopting that MO like Ticketmaster because Snowbird thinks of themselves as being quite "corporate".

And as to the security issues with the lodges, this is quite troubling but honestly not at ALL a surprise to me. In my 12 years, Snowbird is QUITE dysfunctional and I can completely see them having no clue as to who belongs in their buildings. Yeah they have their own "police" but in my experience they are a joke and have way too much terrain to cover (and their priority is more asset protection). As someone paying that "dynamic price" for a Cliff Room, this would be completely unacceptable to have random folks wandering around the property at all hours. Good for the employee telling your wife, but also quite disturbing that the employees are directly telling guests about this huge security issue instead of reporting it up the chain or doing something themselves. If I had to guess, management is either incompetent, way overworked, or just does not care because they are moving to another property after this season.

And, as you said, Snowbird is relying on the "churn" of visitors coming and going to keep them in the black and they lean on the fact that yes they have an awesome mountain in a good location with usually good snow. Recruiting and retaining talented, let alone competent, staff is not at all a priority (ala Amazon). Repeat customers are few and far between. Hope springs eternal that things will change, but for now I just go and ski and leave.
 

Tonyr

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The hotel definitely knows random people are wondering the halls, why they are not doing anything about it is beyond me. It's very easy to add hotel key card scanners to all of the elevators and stairwells.
 

thetrailboss

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The hotel definitely knows random people are wondering the halls, why they are not doing anything about it is beyond me. It's very easy to add hotel key card scanners to all of the elevators and stairwells.
Exactly. To fix it requires brainpower and $$$.
 

Tonyr

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I just looked at what the new Alta Bird season pass costs out of curiosity. It looks like it's just under $2500 which is in the neighborhood of the Aspen Snowmass, Jackson Hole, Big Sky, Sun Valley, Telluride, and Deer Valley season passes. Quite honestly, I was kind of surprised that the Alta Bird pass wasn't that expensive already. For a skier, the combination of Alta Snowbird arguably is the best terrain in the country.
 

thetrailboss

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I just looked at what the new Alta Bird season pass costs out of curiosity. It looks like it's just under $2500 which is in the neighborhood of the Aspen Snowmass, Jackson Hole, Big Sky, Sun Valley, Telluride, and Deer Valley season passes. Quite honestly, I was kind of surprised that the Alta Bird pass wasn't that expensive already. For a skier, the combination of Alta Snowbird arguably is the best terrain in the country.
It’s been an interesting ride in terms of pricing. When I first bought it in 2014 it was $1,800.
It dropped to as low as $1,400 or so and then crept back up. Both have great terrain. Big Sky, Aspen, Jackson have WAY better facilities. Deer Valley is a shadow of its former self. Alterra is charging a premium price for a lesser than Deer Valley experience. What’s sad is that many folks have no idea what it used to be like.
 

2planks2coasts

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Cooper released their 23-24 partner list when passes went on sale July 1st. Slightly different than last year, but still a whole bunch of skiing. Most notable change was Cooper joining the Powder Alliance.

Unfortunately Storm Skiing Blog, normally a source of sane and reasonable analysis, published an article discussing the low price of the Cooper pass vs their partners and the straight reciprocal model vs Indy's (which isn't even on sale right now) paid model. This has some of the Indy FB crowd accusing Cooper of being predatory and "padding their profits," which is frankly bizarre.
 

RH29

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Cooper released their 23-24 partner list when passes went on sale July 1st. Slightly different than last year, but still a whole bunch of skiing. Most notable change was Cooper joining the Powder Alliance.

Unfortunately Storm Skiing Blog, normally a source of sane and reasonable analysis, published an article discussing the low price of the Cooper pass vs their partners and the straight reciprocal model vs Indy's (which isn't even on sale right now) paid model. This has some of the Indy FB crowd accusing Cooper of being predatory and "padding their profits," which is frankly bizarre.
I feel like Storm's analysis hasn't been as on point as usual. It definitely feels more aggressive and even condescending at times.
 

machski

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I feel like Storm's analysis hasn't been as on point as usual. It definitely feels more aggressive and even condescending at times.
Look at how many times Doug Fish has been on that podcast and you can start to see which way Stuart will lean towards these lower tiered products. To some extent he isn't wrong. Indy pays out to every resort on it every time a pass is redeemed. The Ski Cooper pass is a partner pass, not much if anything goes to their "partner" resorts when the reciprocal pass is redeemed. Cooper banks it all. That is what he is pushing against that Cooper's model isn't sustainable for the partners like Indy is.
 

KustyTheKlown

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Look at how many times Doug Fish has been on that podcast and you can start to see which way Stuart will lean towards these lower tiered products. To some extent he isn't wrong. Indy pays out to every resort on it every time a pass is redeemed. The Ski Cooper pass is a partner pass, not much if anything goes to their "partner" resorts when the reciprocal pass is redeemed. Cooper banks it all. That is what he is pushing against that Cooper's model isn't sustainable for the partners like Indy is.

a few years ago silverton sold a spring unguided season pass that was good for like 6 weekends of the season. it came with 1 free heli run. it also came with 2 free days at a shitload of partners, including smuggs and mad river. the guy at mad river said they hated the partnership. had zero upside for them. silverton and the heli run were fucking awesome and 4 days at smuggs and mrg was aces. great for me. bad for smuggs and mrg.
 

2planks2coasts

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Look at how many times Doug Fish has been on that podcast and you can start to see which way Stuart will lean towards these lower tiered products. To some extent he isn't wrong. Indy pays out to every resort on it every time a pass is redeemed. The Ski Cooper pass is a partner pass, not much if anything goes to their "partner" resorts when the reciprocal pass is redeemed. Cooper banks it all. That is what he is pushing against that Cooper's model isn't sustainable for the partners like Indy is.
It's not for Doug Fish or Indy to decide if reciprocal deals are sustainable. It's for the involved resorts themselves. They benefit from incidental spend when Cooper passholders visit their mountain and from having a nice perk to offer their passholders, a perk that with Indy, would A. Cost their passholders more, even with the discount and B. Doesn't actually exist right now, as Indy isn't selling passes. Further, Cooper isn't banking squat. They're a nonprofit and they are giving 3 free tickets to passholders from 74 resorts.

As is mentioned above in the Smuggs/MRG/Silverton relationship, if it doesn't work, resorts are free to not re-sign it. Silverton still has plenty of reciprocals. None in the NE though.
 
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machski

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It's not for Doug Fish or Indy to decide if reciprocal deals are sustainable. It's for the involved resorts themselves. They benefit from incidental spend when Cooper passholders visit their mountain and from having a nice perk to offer their passholders, a perk that with Indy, would A. Cost their passholders more, even with the discount and B. Doesn't actually exist right now, as Indy isn't selling passes. Further, Cooper isn't banking squat. They're a nonprofit and they are giving 3 free tickets to passholders from 74 resorts.

As is mentioned above in the Smuggs/MRG/Silverton relationship, if it doesn't work, resorts are free to not re-sign it. Silverton still has plenty of reciprocals. None in the NE though.
I never said I agree with Fish either. But that is the argument and based on Stuart's slant and frequent chats with Fish, seems to be his and SSPC also. Not sure why Indy is so pissed anyway, they supposedly sold out they had so much demand thus leaving room in the industry for an alternative product or 2.
 

AdironRider

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I think there is a pretty big gulf between the caliber of the Cooper pass partners and the Indy affiliated resorts, but Storm Show is not wrong. The Cooper model is probably not sustainable much longer.
 

machski

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I think there is a pretty big gulf between the caliber of the Cooper pass partners and the Indy affiliated resorts, but Storm Show is not wrong. The Cooper model is probably not sustainable much longer.
Previous to this coming season I might have agreed given Indy Pass's momentum and sales. But now that they have capped sales of that product, I believe there is room for an alternative in this space. Whether the Ski Cooper reciprocal pass model is it or that morphs into a more revenue share product or an entirely new product emerges remains to be seen.
 

2planks2coasts

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There's a place for Indy and revenue sharing, but ski resorts have been swapping access for almost as long as there's been ski resorts. If you really want the most skiing for the lowest price, it's Cooper's Freedom Pass colleague Whaleback with a $225 season pass.

I've been a huge Indy cheerleader here and elsewhere until the recent sale. If Indy were on sale right now, it would be a close decision between them and Cooper. Indy continues to lack any presence in Tahoe or Europe. Cooper has both, even if it's just Diamond and Masella. Cooper also has New Zealand. Indy has Japan though
 

BenedictGomez

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I hath become that which I distain.

In all seriousness, between drive time, terrain, total costs, and children's lesson programs (which was big), I felt like it was the only realistic choice. We'll see how it goes. And as with others here, I promise to strive not to spend 1¢ on anything else while there. LOL
 

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ThatGuy

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You live in Jersey, but will only ski at Park City? I guess there is a big price jump from Utah epic local to an epic product that would get you PC and some eastern mountains??
Pretty sure he’s relocating to Utah
 
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